this post was submitted on 06 Sep 2023
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This is why religion should be stamped out world wide. Faith always overrides common sense. Any rational human will tell you that killing your own daughter is abhorrent behavior.
That too, but this is more on honor culture.
Mostly this, even if it's also a thing where religion and culture have intertwined long and deep enough that people unfortunately wouldn't know where one starts and one ends.
So, let me get this straight. Muslims don’t honor kill because religion? They honor kill because they have a cultural predisposition to honor killing? I mean honestly that sounds kinda gross.
Before you say they aren’t the only ones or something. I had to answer someone else before you. So, they got all the links showing that worldwide Muslims do the heavy lifting on honor killings, and we’re talking Muslims from the Balkans, to the Middle East, to Muslims in America, and Muslims in Europe. We are talking Muslims of every color.
I would think that Muslims in very different geographical areas would have slightly different cultures, but same religion.
I think it is partially entwined as a cultural element, like priests and pedophilia, but I don't think it is written in any Islamic text that one should kill family members out of dishonor – except maybe apostasy.
I agree. From what I’ve read the Quran actually says it’s pretty bad to kill another Muslim. I’m assuming of course that most of these people have quit the faith. But too many Muslim communities in too many different parts of the world do honor killings, for honor killings to not have spread with Islam.
Which this has been such a popular topic that I started talking about it with a friend offline. His take on it was that “I feel that Islam IS the culture in these communities”. He went on to say that “when you have a religion that reminds you several times a day through prayer that you are this religion. You have to plan your day accordingly. So, the religion becomes the culture. “
Which I mostly agree with.
There is no way to fix stupid. All of the elements needed to go underground are included in the instruction manual for all religions. It only creates further conflicts in future generations. The only way to fix this is to introduce scientific thought and principals at a young age across generations and slowly whittle away at them. If you present a solid target, you'll never succeed. People must realize on their own that they do not believe in magic and that this applies across all of time in both directions without exception. They need to see things like the cosmological constants are the true signature of the universe. If a god made this place at a minimum she should have written these down to undeniably sign her work. People need to realise, the past had extremely uneducated people, but they still had clever conartists, they still had all the mental health disorders we see now and then far more because of those that get treatment now. When something says X-Y-Z happened and thousands of people saw it, do we have thousands of accounts or one person saying so. Did they write it down right after it happened or decades later. Do their accounts have errors like a school kid cheating on their homework and copying others or are they consistent. Saying "X-Y-Z happened, and ten thousand people saw it" four decades after it happened and after a giant rebellion where most of those people died is nonsense. Some prophet zooming around like they have Dr Who's Tardis is just as fiction. People were stupid back then. They are not much better now. We were all very stupid as children. It is hard to reverse the stupid things we learned as children. The only way to fix this is to get to these children subtly without alerting the stupid children that are raising them.
I mean, you are absolutely correct. The only people that I know of to be successful at removing religion by force are the Chinese. The Russians tried to do it and failed miserably.
But we should also continue step up the shaming of people and cultures involved in things like child marriage, abuse of women, basically human rights violations.
I also think that we should shine a spotlight on the non-Abrahamic religions as well.
After all, if I started a nonprofit organization called “Save the whales”, and got donations all the time. Had “save the whales” meetings every Tuesday. But then you found out I was taking that money and killing whales. The world would be pretty upset, and rightly so.
Well if you have a religion, and say that you love everyone because that’s what your religion teaches. But then you abuse children, women, minorities, basically the vulnerable people in your community. That’s a huge problem.
So in closing I just want to say that you are correct. People have to realize on their own, but I think that the people involved in these abuses should also be publicly shamed and humiliated.
You call concentration camps and mass death “successful?” I know it’s trendy to hate religion, but promoting actual genocide to do it? Come on.
I mean that’s not how China did it, also I didn’t say I agreed with it. You read way too much into it. As far as Mao’s cultural revolution goes. It was brutal for reasons other than what you listed, and it was successful because it worked.
I just want to make it clear that I don’t endorse genocide. I never said I did. You assumed that’s what I meant for some reason, and you know what happens when you assume?
That’s absolutely how China does it, there are concentration camps in Xinjiang and they are imprisoning Uyghurs for praying. The evidence is stark and there are UN talks with NGOs and many many news reports from survivors. Why would you side with this?
There are now. You are correct, but that’s not how China got rid of religion amongst the Chinese people during the cultural revolution. Which is what I was talking about.
See, Mao followed Stallin’s playbook. You get rid of the smart, the rich, and religious. That makes it easier to pull everyone together under the same banner. They both got rid of the bourgeoisie. They both got rid of intelligentsia. But only China was able to get rid of religion among the Chinese people.
You are correct though that today they use “reeducation camps”. Which is why they haven’t been as successful this time around. As someone else pointed out in this thread. When you use force to take away a religious identity. Stories about, and instructions for going underground are built into the teachings.
Anyway, you are right, but I was talking about the Chinese people proper. The Han Chinese I guess.
I’m not going to waste my time on someone who is an apologist for genocide and concentration camps, just because it happens to people you have a prejudice against.
Edit: and someone with a troll username should have tipped me off that it’s not debating them in good faith. That’s not an ad hominem.
First off I’m going to call Ad Hominem fallacy.
But…
I never said that what China was doing was ok. As someone that visited Tibet, and then was made to leave early by the CCP. I’m no fan of china or genocide. I think we can all agree that concentration camps are not ok.
But religions aren’t just what they say. They are what they do. For instance, I don’t think it says to SA kids in the Bible. Yet they seem to have a propensity for it. The Quran doesn’t say anything about honor killings, but if Muslims do it. Then it’s a Muslim thing.
Real education for kids on the world and what we know about how the universe works and why, the questions in science we are still working on, and teaching the scientific skills we are using to solve these problems.
So better education.
Hmmm. Maybe you could start traveling the world preaching your belief. Maybe call yourself a missionary.
Lol
I think shedding more light on the atrocities committed by these organizations and individuals would be a good start. I think we should publicly shame these people when they do horrific things. Maybe even protest outside their place of worship.
I think that would be a good start
This is NOT religion. This is stupid culture. There’s a reason every religious leader in Iraq condemned this. This stupid cultural idea existed for thousands of years, long before religion, and religious leaders are the ones actually citing holy books to help put a stop to this. Blame the right people.
Look, there are Christians that believe in polygamy and child marriage as part of their faith. Does that mean all Christians? No.
Likewise, do I think that all Muslims support this behavior? No. But the numbers don’t lie. It is an almost uniquely Muslim phenomenon. It doesn’t matter where the Muslims come from.
What?? You think muslim people have the lock on killing their own children. I think I just saw a news story weeks ago about a woman in the u.s. that killed her children. I mean americans usually tend towards just killing a bunch of other people's kids, but whatever. Keep thinking religion is the bad guy here.
We weren’t talking about just killing children. We were talking about honor killings. Please stay on point here.
And you have no way of indicating whether or not someone who had killed a child has deemed it in their mind as an honor killing. The point is, you have a lot to learn. Thinking this can just be solved by eliminating religion, well that's a tall order. Preach on though, and show those wacky muslims how they should act.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killings_by_region
I’m just going to leave this right here.
And from your link "Honour killings are believed to have originated from tribal customs." But go ahead with your muslim diatribe.
Who cares where it originated. Also, if that’s the case. Then how did these tribal customs spread all over the old world. It’s in Muslim communities in the Middle East. It’s in Muslim communities in the Balkans. It’s in Muslim communities in Africa. I mean for that matter 90% of honor killings in the US are Muslim.
You can keep lying to yourself all you want to. But don’t tell me what the numbers plainly state. This isn’t a race thing. There are Muslims of all colors. Likewise, it’s obviously not all Muslims.
But it’s undeniable that just one problematic part of the Muslim faith is honor killings. Next you’re going to try and explain away child marriage in the Muslim faith. Tell me that Muhammad didn’t have a child bride.
My favorite was this crazy math thing this guy told me one time. He said that for women they started counting age at puberty. Since was 7 when she married Muhammad, but started puberty at 12. That means she was 19.
Ill let you figure out why that’s wrong. Here’s a hint. The answer has to do with Muhammad’s first wife.
And yes I know some Christian sects like the FLDS also do child marriage. It is equally abhorrent, but we aren’t talking about them.
The thing is that honor killings are just one more disgusting facet of Islam. Period
You do, since you’re the one who brought it up in the first place and insisted on it until facts proved you wrong.
90% of the honor killings in the US were by people from one of those ethnic regions, and they were doing it for tribal reasons. The Muslim community including Muslims of their own ethnicity were horrified by the practice and unanimously condemned it. The people convicted weren’t even religious. That’s because there’s literally nothing at all in the Quran that supports this practice. Like I said, it’s a pre-Islamic practice that dummies held onto.
Let me try to make this simpler for you since you keep ignoring the reality. There were once primitive tribes that believed they had to sacrifice a virgin every year in order to keep the crops growing. Eventually, Christianity and Islam spread to the region, and despite converting there were some who still believed in the practice and tried to do it anyway, until actual religious leaders had to trek over to these remote places and make them stop. History is full of examples like this; Iranians celebrate Nowruz as a cultural holiday even though the holiday is an ancient Zoroastrian one and Iran is now majority Shia. That doesn’t mean it’s an Islamic holiday. You don’t get to blame the religions for their practice no matter how much you hate them.
This dipshit is also ignoring that fact that there could be other killings outside of muslim culture that just aren't branded honor killing. How about Alex Murdaugh? He killed his wife and son. His son was under indictment, accused of driving a boat into a bridge while drunk, killing a passenger. That sure seems like a honor killing to me. But hey, he isn't muslim, so we won't call it that.
I don’t remember saying anything about where it originated other than who cares about it.
All that matters is where it is now. It is now an almost exclusively Muslim practice. As someone who grew up hanging out with a rich Muslim family a lot. I saw my best friend, and sisters kidnapped by their father taken back to Pakistan and almost forcibly married off. The reason was because the dad felt they were too western. The only reason they got back was because my friend and her older sister escaped and because they were born here got the us embassy to send them back. The younger sisters I think we’re too young back then.
Because of that same friend and her sisters. I got invited to a lot of parties for “brown people” but really it was just kids whose parents had immigrated here from all over, and most of them went to the same mosque as my friend.
I have heard a lot of similar stories. I mean I’ve heard some funny ones too. Like one dude told me how much he loves onions, but can’t eat them around his dad because it grows under ground.
My point is. We aren’t going to see eye to eye on this. Honor killings are a Muslim practice. You’ll never agree that it is, and I’m never going to agree that it isn’t. But even without that. Islam is an especially disgusting religion.
I also want to make one thing incredibly clear. I may not like religions of all faiths (I am an equal opportunity hater in that department), but I have no problem with the people. I only have a problem with the bad things they do in the name of their religion. So, don’t get it twisted. I dislike white American Christians just as much as middle eastern Muslims.
80% of the world’s cocaine comes from Colombia. By your logic that means drug trafficking is an exclusively Catholic practice. You’re trying really hard to connect two dots that don’t actually have a relationship to one another aside from geography.
Strawman fallacy!!!
But I’ll allow it. I’m bored of playing starfield.
If you want to use cocaine and Catholicism. It would be like if cocaine showed up in your country, and Catholics are the vast majority of people doing it. So you look at a map and realize that Catholics are doing cocaine in other countries. So, you do some more reading to find out that catholic countries all over the world from Africa to Eastern Europe to the Middle East. Are all doing cocaine despite being separated by mountains and oceans. Each country being surrounded by totally different cultures, and the only thing that these cocaine doing countries have in common is Catholicism.
Just out of fairness I have to add that India is also doing cocaine, because of the caste system. But they also have a huge catholic population.
I would like to see these numbers that show that it doesn’t matter where the Muslims come from.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killings_by_region
There ya go.
Be they from Africa, Middle East, or Balkans. It’s a Muslim thing. If you go back far enough in history sure it’s every where, but as it applies to today. It’s an almost uniquely Muslim thing.
No, it’s a middle eastern practice that exited for thousands of years before islam. Even though islam forbids it the cultural practice remains. You seem to be drawing a lazy false conclusion. Mafias pre-date Catholicism but just because the Italian mafia exists in a Catholic-majority area doesn’t make it a catholic practice.
But the practice spread with Islam. That’s the difference. Mafia didn’t spread with Catholicism, but honor killings DID spread with Islam.
No it didn’t. None of the Islamic missionaries included that with any of their teachings, which is why you don’t see Arab-style honor killings in places like Albania or Indonesia.
You keep insisting on something factually incorrect. It’s like claiming Catholicism invented wife beating and taught it to Latin America. It was never once sanctioned by Islamic scholars or leaders throughout 1400 year history.
/c/atheism
This isn't about religion. Please read the article before making ignorant comments.
Bro honor killings in a Muslim country are closely tied to their religion. I have a very interesting relationship with Islam, and I can tell you with about 90% certainty that this is because of religion.
https://healthresearchfunding.org/18-incredible-honor-killings-america-statistics/
90% of all honor killings in the us have been Muslim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killings_by_region
Here is honor killings by region. Guess who does the VAST majority of them world wide.
Technically an honor killing doesn’t have to be religious, but then you have to say that Muslims have a cultural predisposition to honor killings, and honestly that sounds super fucking gross.
But going back to what I was saying earlier. I grew up about as close to the Muslim faith as you can and not be Muslim at all.