[Edit 2: I think anyone commenting should identify how much they use Facebook in their comment lol]
On the list of people I describe in the subject, I place myself first. If you're here to defend yourself by showing me your receipts, congratulations, you win, I just saved us who knows how much time. I'm typing this out in an attempt to describe phenomena, not persuade you of anything in particular, other than, this is a thing I see happening a lot; too much would be my take.
I'm just gonna grab [a] most egregious example, but I would like to talk about this, not as a horrific fail, but as an exemplar; at the moment I believe that most people categorize it as the former.
[edit: there really is no "most" egregious example, and I just thought of a much worse one, and unlike Facebook I am fully guilty of this one: I own and drive a car, a lot, and boy am I ignoring some real world consequences there.]
That example being, Facebook Acted As The Main Propaganda Outlet For A Genocide Of The Rohingya In Myanmar, and therefore, Anyone Who Uses Facebook Is Using A Tool That Has Bloodstains On It And Are Somehow Not Horrified.
To more easily conceptualize this, it's much the same as me needing a shovel, and having a neighbour that I happen to know murdered someone with their shovel, but has not been arrested for it, and right when I need the shovel, they walk over with their bloodstained shovel and offer to let me use it for my non-murder task. And I just go "Wow how convenient that you happened to be here with that bright-red shovel just now, I think I'll use this one one of yours with the little spatters of brain on it, instead of walking over to my shed and getting my own shovel out!"
We are talking about murder here, Facebook was used to foment mass murder and in a world that made sense, Zuckerberg would be handed over to the ICC years ago, along with Henry Kissinger and a number of others who instead hang out at the Nobel Peace Prize club where Barack makes a mean Mai Tai.
The problems that people use Facebook to constructively solve is connections to family and close friends, event and interest group organizing, the marketplace, and for the avid user it constitutes a daily journal.
These problems could each be solved using something else that is also just as gratis. It might be a small amount of effort more, but then you maybe don't ever have to touch the remains of a human life that once existed and now does not, due to this particular device being used to end that life.
But it seems that it's more convenient, easy, zero effort, to simply ignore the gore.
That's what I see on the internet. I don't think anyone has ever accepted a bloodstained shovel and set to digging a ditch with it who didn't also feel that their life was next if they didn't, but as long as there's no visible bloodstains, as long as it's just a few articles and podcasts from known radical leftists, eh, look at little Jimmy's recital, isn't he cute?
true but there is more to it, remember consumption and carbon production is just something everyone needs to do to survive in this world.
expecting your friends and family to use a billionaire's private network as one of the sole ways of communicating is not really the same thing as being stuck buying your food with too much plastic on it.
one of these you really do have control over its not a forced choice its just one people think is.
Social media's whole thing is the social aspect - if a community and/or its users are entrenched somewhere, they're not likely to move because a minority has issues with the platform. It's not unreasonable to want people to move away from Facebook/etc., but it's not really true to say that's a choice everyone has, if friends, family, and the communities or activities someone wants to engage with are there; if the options are communicating with loved ones on an 'unethical' platform or not communicating with them at all, it's unreasonable and unfair to expect everyone to choose the latter.
in the past we would drag companies who made such walls in our telecommunications systems to courts and force them to allow open comms, now we have people making excuses for allowing walls.
If you're implying that the belief that companies should be held accountable for their actions and that communication platforms should be democratized is mutually exclusive from not villainizing people for wanting to communicate with their loved ones, I strongly disagree.
I'm not making excuses for the companies. I'm making excuses for the people at their mercy, who are just trying to survive with the hand they were dealt. People can't be blamed for following the path of least resistance; the blame lies squarely with the path and those who made it, and fighting the people on that path who would gladly follow another is counterproductive.
And yet, here you are on Lemmy, rather than on Reddit. Why is that?
i see a lot of this injection in these replies, id suggest re-reading my statements and try and disassociate yourself from the anger of previous convos, no one is calling the users out here beyond saying they dont understand beyond maybe some of OPs statements.
however I do still see a little blame on the users since anytime this topic comes up people come in attacking those discussing it and often being quite rude and frankly overly defensive (common when one suggests to another the wool is over your eyes).
its important to note that those actions that forced those companies to move was initiated by representatives of the people.
at some point everyone made a choice here, they arent necessarily bad people for those choices but ignorance for whatever reason is on the menu. Hard to deny when the networks themselves work so hard to distort views for people. Algos you dont own are not made by friends they are made by those looking to monetize.
this was why we had these cases to begin with, if the incentive of a company providing communications platforms becomes perverted and at a fundamental cross of facilitating those communications its understood to be erosive and dangerous.
in short, communications are a fundamental public utility and should be treated as such.
It seems like we're having two different conversations; I reread your comments as you suggested and it seems as if you're responding to someone else. You're talking about things completely unrelated from what I'm saying, and then implying I'm being unreasonable for being angry over something I'm not even angry about.
I agree completely. This was never in question and it feels like you're implying I think otherwise when you keep reinforcing this point.
This is what I take issue with. As a personal example, my grandpa knows how to make phone calls and use facebook; he doesn't use technology much more than that, and he's not in a state to learn how to use anything else right now.
So I use Facebook to talk with him. Not because I support Facebook, I just want to talk to my grandpa. I find it offensive when you imply those who use closed and/or 'unethical' platforms inherently do it out of ignorance, and that there's always a choice; my only other choice is to not talk to my dying grandfather, and I won't feel guilty for not taking that.
To be clear, in terms of big picture I'm with you on everything else you said.
That sums up my thoughts nicely.
I don't feel this discussion has been in good faith; your last comment has some gaslighting (whether intentional or not) that I don't think has a place in respectful conversation, so I won't be responding further.
so wait, its better to say these people are knowingly choosing to be on these platforms and requiring others to do so communicate with them as well? im not even sure what you are saying but it does seem we may be at cross purposes
we have come a long way since breaking up the bells, wow
is your instance seeing everything?
im not supporting OPs post, if you look at the thread this is a reply to someone trying to equate these choices people are making to the lack of choice people have in the carbon argument https://lemmy.intai.tech/comment/632241
which to me is a watering down of the carbon argument where people truly have no choice vs having put themselves in a mental box for whatever the reason.
The thing about it, though, is that we are all already on a universal network; the internet. We all have email, give or take a few weirdos. We are perfectly capable of reaching our loved ones that way.
It is a question of convenience in this case, not necessity.
In my car example, I can argue - or rather, I used to be able to argue, because I work fully remote now - that I had no choice but to commute, and since I moved to the country with not even a bus service into the city, it was quite arguable on the basis of your comic.
But I left facebook and my friends and family did not change; they had less of me, perhaps, but I had just as much of them.
I believe you responded to the wrong comment, as I didn't post that comic. Either way-
It isn't always a matter of convenience over necessity. For a personal example, my grandfather knows how to use Facebook and basically no other communication technology; he isn't really able to learn new things now, so my options are to use Facebook or to not talk to him. If you're saying I'm acting unethically unless I do the latter I don't think much more needs to be said; if not, well, that's my point.
He can't operate a telephone?
Time zones and limited schedules are the issue there. Smartphones for texting are difficult for him. But either way, that's beside the point; what I'm trying to get at is that an inconvenience to you might be more than that to someone else. Learning a new platform might be easy for you, but it's basically impossible for someone with dementia. Leaving a job that requires you to use unethical tools might be fine if you can get another one easily, but some people can't. Not talking with friends on unethical social platforms might be fine if you have more social opportunities, but to someone with social issues, finding a group of people that you can be comfortable around isn't trivial.
The comment I originally responded to was saying it's unfair to compare oil/plastics industry with social media, because you have a choice with the latter but not the former; while that's the case more often than not, it's far from universal, and applying the same standards to someone for whom the opposite is true is unreasonable. You never know how much someone has to sacrifice to do things that might seem easy, and you never know how easy the things that seem hard might be.
I know, everyone in the world who is not on the Fediverse is an evil, lazy scumbag and the absolute best way to get them to switch is to sneer and scold. No matter what communities they have built, what access to information they need, how difficult it is to rebuild that elsewhere, they're all just terrible people compared to you, polishing your halo in the corner.
This line of argument is bogus and self-defeating. Quit it.
im not suggesting judgement, you are injecting that from a perspective I don't have.
this is what people do, suggesting its the same as the carbon problem is a bit disingenuous as its entirely mental rather than systemic.
i get there are similarities but they are not the same thing.
i have seen sites with millions fold and other sites grow in its place in extremely short time spans. The idea of the current immutability of the internets services is a fallacy and the tools to communicate are open to all, there are no blocks beyond what is truly easiest and most understood.
It is not surprise that there is an embedded profit in making sure people think its so immutable, wouldn't want to bleed users from the garden after all.
In this particular story, most users are both unaware and are actually served a version of the internet that is designed to make them want to stay in the gardens.
Stoopid sheeple. They should listen to you, sneering at them.
Lot's of anger at a straw-person there it seems. I'm suggesting they are unaware at a level that takes an understanding that there is an option and a desire to do so.
Whats interesting is that in the last year I see more angry people like you rather than clueless ones.
this tells me awareness is growing and thats good.
be as angry as you want. ive been pissed since these people starting trying to take away the internet we paid to build.
FFS. There is no point lecturing people from on high. Talk about it, sure. Information is good. But moralising will do nothing useful. Point your fingers at bad systems, not the people who are just trying to live their lives under mostly quite difficult circumstances. Improve the environment in which people are forced to make difficult trade-offs. Don't bully them for facing difficult trade-offs and not being obsessed about exactly the same things you are. It will not do you, or anyone else, any good. The problems are structural, fight the structures.
Isn’t it difficult to initiate change to big companies without user pushback? What impetus do they have to change when their user base accepts what they are given? Sure, regulators and legislators should do something, but they aren’t going to do it on their own. People need to do their part, and mass exodus is something the media reports on. I’m not asking anyone to abandon these places entirely, especially if their communication with certain people relies on it, but anyone can move away from them to some extent. Just because it’s hard doesn’t mean it’s not with doing. Also, in no way am I saying that it is the users sole responsibility to bring down or hold these companies accountable, but it usually takes some grassroots to get something started.
People need to do a lot of things. Very few people have the time to do everything they'd like to do, let alone everything you'd like them to do.
Attack the systems that trap us, not the people who are trapped by them. This is not hard.
How do you think we should attack the system? Isn’t boycotting exactly that?
Of course it is. But attacking other people for not joining your boycott is attacking other people, not the system. Like I said, talk about why you boycott X but don't sneer at or lecture anyone who is not also boycotting X.
This is not hard.
If you’re taking about OP, I get what you’re saying. It’s a lot to get mad at the ignorant or the struggling because of something that isn’t being widely reported. Many people are “ignoring” something that they don know whether to believe, if they even know about it at all. I do stand firm, however, that once you know about an atrocity that a company has committed, continuing to use it either indicates you don’t care or (if the atrocities are ongoing) are complicit in their activities.
Because everyone has enough time on their hands, right? Capitalism doesn't keep them scrabbling for rent money and food and too busy to know what's going on with their family, let alone the wider world. They've got all the time in the world. That's why you're a vegan riding a handmade wooden bicycle and handwoven clothes, living off grid, never using anything with a combustion engine, or any consumer electronics you can't make for yourself from scratch, or a corporate ISP, and not growing your own food because farming is more sustainable, so you get what you can't forage direct from the farm gates.
I mean, I'm guessing you're not. But if you are, it's because you're wealthy enough to make those choices. Most people are not, as well you know. And those who can make some of those choices can pretty much never make all or even most of them. And it is not up to you to decide which choices they should make, or berate them for not making the choices you yourself made.
It is about power, not individuals. Alienating the people you need onside is downright fucking daft.
we are on the internet talking about people using social networks. vast majority of internet users have email addressees through thier ISPs, most popular tool used is a smart phone meaning they very often have phone numbers, SMS, and a number of other comm options.
however I do agree to a certain degree, there are some services that try to gate through centralized socials though I have yet to see any of those be the kinds of social support services that people using state-issued hardware and connections would be forced to. Show me some and Ill let the EFF know.
Exactly. Other people care about different things for equally good reasons. Unless you are doing absolutely everything that other people might want to focus their energies on, you're a fucking hypocrite. And if you are doing even a tiny fraction of those things successfully, you're a rich kid playing at life and berating everyone else for not having been born lucky.
Quit it. Please.
god i wish, i watched ATF raid my neighbors, my parents abused and abandoned us and have had guns held on me.
this is rich kid life now?
damn the world has gotten hard
you are projecting so hard.
what does it say about people when they refuse to reply to email and ask you to sign up to facebook to talk to them when they are classed as "friends and family"
is it "too hard" to reply to email? is this asking too much?
Calm the fuck down. Read it again.
If you want to change the world, rather than just polish your halo, put your narcissism away and do better.
one of us is clearly tilting at windmills
maybe cut out the random insults and direct straw manning of people you are talking to if you want to be taken seriously. for real, why derail the conversation with these baseless insults and poorly made personal arguments?
yes its has always been the epitome of rudeness to look at someone you would call a friend or family member and require them to talk to you on a system that requires you to sign legal agreements and install trackers on your hardware just to communicate with them. just because a large majorty are rude does not change the fact that it is indeed rude.
being angry at learning you have been rude you entire time you have been on the internet is hard to deal with, realizing people have been playing you is hard to deal with esp when those playing you, youll never get to speak to or get redress from.
i see you are here so I suspect you are dealing with some level of this.
remember the subthread here is asserting this is like the carbon situation. ive yet to see anyone prove to me it is. in one people truly have no choice without demanding change and changing thier own governments. in the other personal choice is entirely possible. no one says you have to cut these networks out entirely, your level of engagement is up to you, but know what you are trading when doing so.
i come to social media to make social posts, I dont come here to check in with Mark and Elon and let them know what ive been up to, where i have been and who all my friends are.
You insult billions of people on the basis that they don't do exactly what you do but find it insulting when someone points out your hypocrisy?
Grow the fuck up.
saying someones actions are rude is not an insult but i see some wanting to push language that way.
and yes, i directed a bit at you this time, for the most part i expect people to be ignorant, as I have said in other posts a lot of money is spent convincing people otherwise. none is spent explaining to people what thier actual freedoms are or what they give up by the choices they are making when clicking a colored icon and the Agree button.
im still waiting for:
you are looking to cover these with the same veracity as what is done to support the "big carbon" industry and proliferate them since that is the equivalency that was offered.
now I think we all get why big carbon claims are bunk, its obvious to anyone that we hopelessly rely on supply chains and only have so much say in thier form or how many layers of crap we have to go through to get staples. People truly have no choice, even if you have the privilege of time and money you are still going to struggle and at best you create a facade of "not relying on big carbon" but you do.
this is not equivalent here, i get why people feel stuck, i even get why they made the choices they did but when it comes to communications, thankfully we managed some standards of law to ensure our little supercomputers are able to still talk to eachother through comms standards. Every user on the internet has always had the choice, its often only a few clicks away. There is a reason why there is a huge incentive to protect the garden and ensure algorithms, UX and features are such to discourage looking beyond the garden.
while there are many areas of similarity id suggest saying they are the same is an insult to both user groups (one internet users the other, well everyone) and really it devalues the carbon discussion which while I care about open communications, we know the carbon discussion is much more critical to our species on the timeline.
Neither time nor energy are infinite. We all have to make choices. If you want people to make different choices, try carrots instead of sticks.
And if you want people to decide that the Fediverse a better place to be, stop filling it up with whining about how not everyone has joined it yet.
talking generally instead of directly again i see. good for the room to be sure.
i might suggest you look for an instance more aligned with your interests.
FWIW, i dont see these threads often, but i often hear about users on big instances acting like this is the only thing on lemmy. I think its just the only thing on the server you are on.
im not sure where you are seeing this, unless you are speaking generally.
if this is directed at me, I would say its this tone I get from people that would inspire me to look down and potentially lecture.
as i am often told, its not what you are saying, its how you are saying it.
Yeah, they really come off as an angry jerk when they’re telling us not to be jerks.
ive projected my online anger before too. on lemmy there are going to be a lot of
"i dont like this about the internet"
wit replies that say
"well dont use the billionaires toy, drive your own internet instead"
which regardless of how its presented i expect can feel like an onslaught if you are trying to understand and still feel connected in some way to those networks.
Ive never really depended on them for connection and have always considered it extremely rude to expect me to communicate with you using systems like these. Its not just a game of "come talk to me here" its "you can only talk to me if you click 3 agreements, hand over your personal info to a large corp and accept multiple trackers on your browser"
thats quite an ask for messages I can send via email if its REALLY that important.