this post was submitted on 05 Dec 2024
56 points (86.8% liked)

Ask Lemmy

27210 readers
1763 users here now

A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions


Rules: (interactive)


1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them


2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?


3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.


4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com. NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].


5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.


6) No US Politics.
Please don't post about current US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world or !askusa@discuss.online


Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.

Partnered Communities:

Tech Support

No Stupid Questions

You Should Know

Reddit

Jokes

Ask Ouija


Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu


founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Mine is that Discovery should have been a series taking place in the Picard era.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 37 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

The Wrath of Khan ruined Khan's character.

Khan was introduced in the episode Space Seed, where his crew of genetically-enhanced tyrants are discovered hibernating on a ship, having been kicked off Earth centuries before. It’s a wonderful episode about opposing moral perspectives, and we get the positive and negative views on both.

You could say it’s about slave/herd morality versus master/strength morality, or you could say it’s about compassionate humanism vs tyrannical domination. Both these perspectives are given their space in the episode.

Khan talks about how they were actually persecuted for their reproductive schemes, how that’s an infringement on their freedom. That makes him somewhat sympathetic, but at the same time he accepts nobody’s rules except his own.

The most interesting part is how the crew of the Enterprise are actually enamoured with the strength, charisma, and freedom of the tyrants. The final scene (after they defeat Khan) show the crew almost lamenting how they can’t do the kind of tyranny that Khan does. They want it, they kind of respect it, but they acknowledge the importance of equality and rule of law, so they almost-grudgingly agree that they did the right thing by defeating him.

When they defeat Khan they exile his crew once again to a harsh planet.

Ultimately the episode demonstrates why fascism will always be alluring to men and women, and also why it’s important to make sure that it doesn’t take over.

Then we get The Wrath of Khan. Khan is no longer charismatic. There’s no philosophical discussion. Just a revenge story. And this is somehow the version of Khan we remember!

You could argue that Khan’s vengeful turn is what happens when the spirit of freedom is crushed and ostracized. That would make a good arc, and a good psychological study. But none of that is discussed. He’s just a bitter, resentful loser who will stop at nothing to hurt Kirk. Khan as a character is ruined, and the story isn’t even ten percent as good as the episode where he was introduced.

Edit: I had the name of the episode wrong.

[–] flicker@lemmy.world 20 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

This is such an interesting take, because I have such a different one!

I maintain that, in his anger, in his vengeance, he was right. Being exiled to Ceti Alpha 5, when no one knew that Ceti Alpha 6 had exploded years ago and destroyed the habitability of Ceti Alpha 5 (oh my God, no one thought to check on the marooned Khan and his people in fifteen years?) means that he was a victim. And there was no justice.

I still thought of Khan and his people as charismatic and strong and intelligent- but victimized by Kirk, they were correct to seek revenge. What was done to them was not justice. It was cruel and unusual punishment. I also found it a testament to their strength that they survived for 14-and-a-half years on that hellhole.

Loved your comments. Love the different perspective!

[–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 week ago

I'm not necessarily saying he was wrong (although his mission is a race to the bottom). And yeah, the victimization could explain his deterioration from a great man to a warped vengeance-seeking psycho. But as a character there was nothing interesting going on there. He's just a generic Bad Guy, for the plot.

But I like your points. It's nice to see some Khan appreciation!