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Veteran here. If it's any consolation, basic training included a fairly lengthy course (well... relative to the other shit they teach there at least) about how to identify and what to do when given unlawful orders. Lots of emphasis on DO NOT FUCKING FOLLOW THEM. Lots of emphasis on the Nuremberg trials / if your defense is "just followed orders..." then you're fucked. They talked about people like Hugh Thompson Jr. and the severe back pain he sustained from lugging around those massive balls.
The military does NOT want to become Nazis or stormtroopers. If Trump plays the whole 'execute order 66' card, military leadership will tell him to suck a dick.
It's the cops I'm worried about. And the neonazi civilians responding to Trump's stochastic terrorism.
Trump has the Supreme Court, the Senate, and almost certainly the House. All three will do as they are told. If the millitary refuses illegal orders, I think those orders will be made legal. Either that, or he will be allowed to replace military leadership.
It's going to take more than just replacing the leadership. Every e-nothing gets that same training; whether illegal orders are coming down from the president himself or their immediate supervisor or anyone in between, they'll be met with resistance.
Now, there are plenty of trumpanzees among the ranks who will put their loyalty to Agent Orange over their country and constitution, and do whatever he says no questions asked, just as it is with the non-military population. So, if we see an 'order 66' event, what's going to happen is a SHIT TON of in-fighting within the ranks to the point that our military readiness is going to nosedive, leaving us vulnurable to other forms of attacks, but I don't see troops actually hitting the streets like that in any organized fashion.
Again though, what I'm worried about are the cops. They're already completely loyal to that shitstain, and have a long and regular history of extreme unnecessary violence and not actually following the law. And they're already mobilized and infused into every single city in the US. Combine that with the civilian trumpanzees and we've got a very large force that have been itching for a civil war for like a decade at least.
Stand your ground laws should work on cops. An acorn might fall and they'll start blasting randomly, best to nip that in the bud.
We're getting to the point where laws don't mean shit. You have the right to defend yourself, whether or not it's a legal right.
Thought provoking question of the day: Leading up to the holocost, would the average German citizen have been justified in taking up arms against their own government in order to prevent it? If yes, what line was crossed that gave them the moral obligation to do so? And finally, what's the modern equivalent of that line?
One good thing is that the ratio of police to other civilians is quite low. They don't have the numbers to oppress a large area.
Officers in every branch are also trained to protect their people and be transparent with leadership about their limitations. Remember Captain Crozier?
Anyone who's in long enough and is politically savvy enough to get stars, stopped caring about that stuff a long time ago.
What if I told you, there are PLENTY of soldiers in every branch ready and waiting to betray any oath for daddy trump. They went through the same classes you did and just nodded along to get through it. Now they're trained, and ready to fill the void when Trump fires or demotes anyone who refuses his orders.
That would require massive and obvious reorganizations of the military. It would also effectively hollow out the officer corps with so many of them refusing an illegal reorganization. (The organization at the high levels is set by law)
It's far more likely Trump will take volunteer veterans into the DOJ, give them a badge, and run it like a military unit with all of the equipment and none of the accountability. It's easier, faster, and legal.
I keep saying this again and again. Being set by law, does not fucking matter now. Being illegal, does not matter now. They will MAKE IT legal, or they will hand wave the illegality.
Sure, great, but the military isn't about to hand waive anything. They will send the MPs to arrest soldiers for desertion. They will process people out of the military for following illegal orders.
They aren't robots and they have decades of experience in slow walking stuff, malicious compliance, and straight up refusing illegal orders. There isn't just one officer to fire either. It would take them years to build a military willing to be used against the American people.
They can have a DOJ task force up and running in a month. They can be recruiting veterans in 2 months. They can use the surplus system to transfer armored vehicles to the DOJ in about 6 months if someone is dragging their heels. And the military is actually in the middle of getting shiny new armored vehicles so seeing M113 APCs showing up on the surplus list isn't even going to raise eyebrows.
I sincerely hope they smash their heads against the military for another 4 years. But by the end of his last term they figured out they could use a DOJ task force to beat up and abduct protestors. Just adding surplus military equipment and Trump cultists to that isn't going to be hard to figure out. Stop trying to put the military in a hole it's not going to easily fit into and start looking at what's actually likely.
You're absolutely correct.
Rank and file grunts may be gargling nazi balls, but the officer pool are often college educated and will not hand over America to a dictatorship. It'll take a decade just to fire all the officers who won't follow his illegal orders. Another decade to reform into a stazi.
The secret police will be local police forces organized under a Fed Dept probably Homeland or ICE.
You've heard of Vietnam right? Why are you putting so much faith in the US military acting like they have any sort of mortality?
The military was almost completely reworked between Vietnam and Desert Storm. They were getting tired of having to deal with the paper work for fragging, accidental friendly fire, and junior officers getting the shit beat out of them. Also a lot of the reforms had to do with ethics and rules of engagement, Vietnam was a fucken PR nightmare and the military did not want to deal with that shit ever again.
That's his training. The military mentally conditions these men to respond to stuff like this in this way: absolute, unyielding, expected. He is not going to be able to conceive of a different way because his training was that thorough. That's probably a good thing. My dad was in the military also and when you ask him about military stuff, his personality goes into soldier mode like this too.
However I will say, having met modern young men who are soldiers - idk that they got the same training at all.
I'm not the other poster. But we already have examples of the military standing up to Trump during his previous term. We know he's going to have to wade into the leadership pool to find sympathetic leaders.
They don’t have to make it legal.
Trump will pardon anyone he feels like. They can also just fail to prosecute or let cases against perpetrators just die in legal limbo.
Uphold the constitution? Great- they'll pass an ammendment.
They don't have the numbers to pass an ammendment. They will just use the Supreme Court to "interpret" the constitution into oblivion.
They don't need numbers, They will just do it. Because what are you going to do about it.
And what if I told you that there's also plenty of soldiers that will uphold the constitution and will be ready to fight for it.
Yep there's 2 sides to this. Which is why I think civil war is inevitable. There will be 2 factions, Trump loyalists and American loyalists.
At some point Trump wants the military to be completely subservient to him. This is needed so he can abolish Congress and create a new office for himself as dictator. He knows if he just leaves office after 4 years the court cases will resume and he will end up in prison. He will do anything to stay out of prison.
We can only hope the generals won't be loyal to him and when Trump fires the generals that their respective armed forces remain loyal to their general during the Civil War and not to Trump.
This is exactly what China and Russia wanted all along, to destabilize the usa. With us out of the way China will expand in the Phillipines and Taiwan while Russia expands its European offensive. I expect India to take advantage as well.
I also think there will be a civil war. I think Trump is a Russian asset meant to cause it and do as much damage as possible to the US. And the same Russian propaganda that turned MAGA into a weapon has been affecting soldiers too.
He won't abolish congress, that would hurt rich people. He'll just continue to ensure it's useless for helping anyone.
The military is majority conservative especially enlisted. If officers try to keep things under control Der Fuhrer could just strip them of their commissions and give them to anyone he wants to. Especially if his people run congress.
That is absolutely not how that works. Also while they're conservative, they are not fans of Trump. The active duty military voted blue in 2020.
And what did they vote for this time?
I'm not actually seeing a similar poll for 2024. They did do including veterans which is roughly 60/40. Regardless, if he treats the military the same way he did last time then any advantage among active duty troops will not last.
I hope you're right even though a ton of members of the groups of people he has disparaged voted for him. I wouldn't be surprised if the armed forces are among them.
Oh I don't bring hope. Sorry about that. My point is it's far easier for him to stand up a DOJ task force with drones and infantry veterans who self select to be in his personal unit. He'll give them badges and armored vehicles.
The military resisting is going to be a moot point because SCOTUS already ruled that police aren't troops, so these guys will be able to do all the things the Army can't while effectively being the Army.
I don't think you understand the command structure of the US Armed forces.
Congress and the president issue all officer commissions and warrants for warrant officers respectively. Who can stop them from revoking them if they so choose?
They better get ready for a fight because it's coming. they will have to decide if they will just resign in protest or if they will fight. How many will actually fight? Who knows. Nearly everyone I know personally in the military, has said many times "it's just a job"
I'm not in anymore but I was one of them, reported and told others I would turn my gun on them if they tried to start "beating hippies heads in" when we were getting ready to be sent to a city protest. The military is not all Republicans like the police as it attracts a huge swath of different Americans doing for different reasons.
There are for sure good soldiers. My own cousin is one of them that I know would put down anyone who tried to turn on his men. But we have to acknowledge that there are MANY bad soldiers who would be more than willing to turn on this nation, and there are also plenty that would rather be aloof and not stick their necks out for a fight
Did they talk about that absolutely nobody from the My Lai massacre - the example you brought up - saw any real consequences, with only one guy - who killed 22 - serving 3.5 years before Nixon got him out?
Or that the highest ranking surviving Nazi, who had a real say in German leadership during the war, was Hitler's trusted advisor and unrepentant, unwavering follower, even after the war, got off with 10 years since the US and the UK committed similar war crimes as he did, so they didn't sentence him for that?
Or the Hague invasion act and US war crimes that precipitated it? Or the US war crimes since?
I think those guys will be just fine saying "I was just following the orders of the magnificent Cheeto".
Nope! This is basic training we're talking about. They teach only the details that accomplish the lesson. And the lesson was don't follow illegal orders. If there's more to the story that contradicts the lesson, you bet your ass it was omitted.
I guess my point was just because they tell you that you are going to get your ass kicked for committing war crimes does not mean they are not blatantly lying about it and that the US armed forcers would disobey illegal orders in a real, live situation.
That's true - I guess we'll see if and when it happens. But the training on that topic is pretty clear and heavily emphasized relative to other training. It's also both a politically charged order and one that will elicit defensiveness even if it was made legal.
It'll also cause a lot of infighting and heavily weaken our military, which would invite attacks from one (or more) of the nations we've pissed off with our shitty foreign policy... So there may well be troops taking to our streets shortly after that kind of order, but most likely not our troops.
What a fun alternative!
Give the military time. Good people will get tired or will retire. No one wants to have to fight this much.
You've never met an e-4 with the regulations on their side. They will professionally become a rock and hate-love every second of it.
Except the military is trained to… y’know fight and defend the constitution.
They can force people to take the classes, but they can't force them to agree with them. I'm glad they go over this, but they should probably test people on this stuff without warning them it's a drill and see how they actually respond.
The thing is, they do...at least when I went through basic, they'd be PTing me, screaming at me, asking all sorts of questions to see if I know and understand and can perform under pressure.