this post was submitted on 18 Oct 2024
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Showerthoughts
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A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. A showerthought should offer a unique perspective on an ordinary part of life.
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There are zero people on this website who can withstand actual torture, myself included. There are few people in the entire history of humanity who can withstand it, and they're exceptional people, 9 million times more bad ass than the average Lemming.
If you ever find yourself in a position where you are going to be tortured, just tell them everything and hope they take that information and kill you. It's unlikely. They'll probably still torture you to be sure they got everything, and the truth, and whatever else their motivations are, but that's your one hope. Otherwise, I'm so sorry. Finding yourself restrained in the hands of an actual monster is a nightmare.
I disagree and think this is just perpetuates the mistaken belief that torture actually provides results.
"Everything we know from psychology, physiology, neuroscience, and psychiatry about behaviour and the brain under extreme stress, pain, sleep deprivation, extremes of hot and cold suggests that torture as a method for information extraction does not work — it may produce information, but that information is not reliable. There are also numerous first-hand reports of torture survivors that make the point amply: an individual subjected to torture will say anything to make it stop."
You're right that it doesn't provide reliable information because the person being tortured will say absolutely anything to make it stop. But, I'm not clear on what you're disagreeing with, because I don't think anything you said contradicts anything I said.
Torture and money will give you a ton of information but not reliable information.
Because in the first case the person will say anything to make you stop and in the second case the person will say anything to make you continue.
Many years ago I read an article by an Iranian gentleman that basically highlighted that torture doesn't get the answers required, it harms both the sufferer and the person inflicting pain on a deep level. This also brings to mind the prevalence of torture in the early series of "24"... a problem later addressed by the producers when they actively avoided depiction of torture. In the early Obama presidency there was a lot of (over due) contrition over the use of enhanced interrogation at Guantanamo bay. Arguements for the use of torture were often given in the context of a "ticking time bomb" or equivalent scenario that needed to be stopped in a given time limit, despite such incidents not having a real life precedent.
Agree completely. And the fact should be obvious if you think about it for two seconds.
I remember almost walking out of that movie Zero Dark Thirty. A major blockbuster based on the premise that torture works. One example among many. Apparently there are a ton of people who want this myth to be true.
"We can hurt the bad people until they tell us what we need to know to be safe."
It's nonsense, but it can feel true.
What you need is psychological warfare. Just ask the CIA
Is this what you think about before bed? Damn that's dark.
Kinda... I've been re-reading The First Law series.
I'm reading Le Carre's "The Spy who came in from the Cold." The protagonist briefly reflects on torture and his own inability to resist it. The antagonist later says something to the effect of, 'We believe you think you've told us everything, but we want to make sure we get what your subconscious isn't telling us.' A creepy thought about the perspective of a torturer. Admittedly, this book was written by an ex-spy in the sixties, and the mindset about torture has shifted. Just found it interesting and maybe relevant