106
For decades, we have been in the streets in defense of the Palestinian people, and will continue to fight until the total liberation of Palestine!
this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2024
106 points (78.8% liked)
United States | News & Politics
7210 readers
266 users here now
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Trans woman here, stop using the genocide happening against us to wipe your hands of the genocide happening in Gaza
If you actually oppose fascism, you have to join a socialist org. I don't give a shit who you vote for, but the liberals won't stop fascism, they structurally can't.
Your opinion is noted, but I've heard the reverse of that statement from trans people as well, so...no? Trans people are not a monolith and you do not speak for all of them any more than I speak for all white 20-something dudes.
Cool, so you want to use trans genocide to justify your position, and you'll listen to the trans people who agree with you but not to trans people to disagree with you.
This is good ally behavior /s
Don't give a shit who you vote for but if you want to actually stop fascism you have to go join a socialist org. Liberals are structurally incapable of stopping fascism, as fascism is capitalism in decay and liberals support capitalism as their number 1 priority.
In a situation where I am being told to do 2 conflicting things that are effectively mutually exclusive, yes, I will pick the person I know's wishes over some random stranger.
Is this mutually exclusive with your friend's statement?
You should pick the correct thing rather than treating trans people like Pokemon.
I'm merely acting on the wishes of the person who asked me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not true. You made sure to make this about trans people and the political violence done to them and then tried to weasel out of listening to the trans person here that knows you should oppose genocide.
Please stop using trans people to justify support of genocide.
See, here's the problem: all you are doing is ignoring the wishes of another trans person. If we want to go with the magical route of a single person can be representative of an entire group of people, then I'd be able to accept your request. However, we do not, and what I am saying is true that trans people will be harmed by me not supporting Kamala. Not every single trans person cares about this issue as much as Palestine, which is fine, but there are at least some who do, so my stance is valid.
Hell, we can go further if you like: I could ask you to not let my Ukrainian friend be killed by Russia when the Republicans cut off support for it and the anti-air systems go offline.
There are no shortages of tragedies in the world that have no easy immediate fixes, and sometimes simply reducing the damage is the only option; other times you can't do anything, and sometimes the lives of one side get weighed against the other. Shit sucks
This is what it means to not treat a demographic like a monolith. You have to actually develop correct positions and understand what solidarity means. You can't just go off of what a given person from a demographic tells you as if it is a representative gospel. This is a liberal tokenization of identity, it is by definition going to be inconsistent, and it is counterproductive because it is always used in bad faith to justify a violent status quo and present it as, "THE [demographic] position", and, as in your case, typically to attempt and pit the marginalized against each other.
It is common for naive white people to act this way and be easily taken in by tokenizing bullying logic, then repeat it themselves.
"My trans friend asked me to support a genocider" is not a valid excuse. You have simply adopted a false consciousness that works against solidarity, trying to let yourself off the hook for even thinking through this topic. Apparently I should be arguing with your trans friend because you are not responsible for your own opinions or actions, here.
Trans people will also be harmed by supporting Kamala. Do you think there are no trans Palestinians? Do you see how your indoctrination leads you to pit marginalized groups against one another? Why can you not fight for trans liberation and against the genocide? Thousands, possibly even millions, do this every single day.
There is no logic to be found in those statements, though they are presented as if the conclusion follows from the earlier statement.
Another good example of how far "my X friend said" will get you, or can even be counterproductive. Russia invaded Ukraine in response to decades of NATO (US)-based aggressions using Ukraine as a pawn. That was bipartisan actikn, though the most salient escalations happened under Democratic administrations. After Russia invaded, the Biden-Harris administration then fully committed to a strategy to hurt Russia regardless of how it damaged Ukraine and Ukrainians. They will gladly force escalations in a fight to the last Ukrainian. The people you are trying to support are responsible for the exact situation Ukraine is in, leveraging cynical, maximalist foreign policy regimes to ramp up tensions and push last red lines in order to hurt and take down other countries, not to support the people there.
Ending the war in Ukraine ASAP is the priority if you care about Ukrainians. Before they lose even more people and sell off even more of the country to foreign capital. If you think Trump will do this by no longer using Ukraine as a vehicle to throw weapons at Russia, you should, apparently, support Trump. Personally, I organize against both parties.
These are not natural disasters, they are geopolitical developments that have people and rationalrs and economic bases and interests. In this case the people you are openly supporting are doing a genocide. It is not something to "fix" as if they just happened upon a broken machine. They are active in its creation, they are its explicit material supporters in an ongoing genocide.
Notice that you cannot even describe who has blame. You adopt the passive voice just like they tell you to. Wouldn't want to actually criticize the genociders, right? That might cost them an election? This is you: "go team genocide!"
Normalizing genocide and repeating tokenizing and absurd talking points from the party doing genocide is not reducing harm.
You can always do something, but you would need to take that first step of doing anything at all in the right direction.
Their Ukraine bit was obvious bait. In a context where there were actually onlookers left, it's bad bait to take because you can see how they then used your response as an excuse to pretty much completely ignore everything else you said and go "muh tankies".
I gladly accept that bait, it is useful fodder.
Understood, as you were 🫡
Ah, the classic tankie defending Russia, the country with the constant historical instances of brutalizing the nations around it.
I guess it sucks that Russia can't simply smash Ukraine like they did last time in the 20s, because nothing bad happened after Ukraine was subjugated a decade later lol
Oh, who am I kidding? You probably don't believe the USSR did anything bad.
As for your other statements: I'm going to operate under the idea of protecting the people I know vs those I don't, as there is basically nothing I can do to stop the problem, and I've already determined that going with the less damaging to them option is the superior one to not. I'd be happy to have an option that both keeps the people I care about safe AND stop genocide, but if I can't, I'm taking the next best thing - it really is that simple.
If you can't accept that and want to call me a genocide lover, go off lol, your words are worth as little as the next person's.
Notice that at no point did I defend Russia. You are simply making things up now, tacitly admitting to a bankrupt position. You then went on a little fictitious jubilee of making things up, believing them, and then making fun of them. Did you enjoy your public fantasizing? I'll remind you that you are justifying support for genocide.
So open chauvinism. Morally bankrupt.
I have already addressed this. Refer to the things I said that you conveniently skipped over.
I have already addressed this. Refer to the things I said that you conveniently skipped over.
I have already addressed this. Refer to the things I said that you conveniently skipped over.
I have no need for exaggerative labels, only accurate ones that are uncomfortable for you. You support genociders and normalize genocide as a lesser evil policy plank. You do so with rhetoric that tokenizes trans people and speak flippantly about the similarities between your logic and support for Himmler. You claim to care about the genocide of Palestinians but then make references to their actual plight about yourself and your own feelings. You acknowledge your position is pure chauvinism, though you do not have the vocabulary to describe it as such.
You can avoid being labeled by descriptions of your behavior by not engaging in those behaviors. If you feel bad about any of that bad faith or bigoted behavior, perhaps do some self-criticism rather than trying to pretend I am being absurd.
Announcing your own intransigence in the face of reason is not a zinger lol
Sigh... we both know this isn't going anywhere. Neither of us will give in because both of us feel strongly about our positions and will not budge on them because of our feelings that we are doing the right thing (and no amount of saying I support genociders will change that).
Anything you say that's less than Russia totally pulling out of Ukraine I can easily say is supporting genocidal dictators in the same way you say voting for the Democrats is supporting genocidal regimes and we can keep going back and forth ad nauseum, so I'll save us both the trouble.
Just remember, the average American is wildly less socially conscious than you'd like to believe, though the fact that so many poor factory workers are anti-union should make that somewhat self-evident. Whatever you plan to do better be a bit more compelling than just talking about Muslims a world away to the decidedly closed-minded rural population of Middle America.
No, this is not a principled disagreement. You have repeatedly had to deflect, ignore, and mischaracterize to dance around challenging points. I do not care about the "strength" or your beliefs, though it is clearly flimsy given this insecure behavior.
Please refer to what I've already said about Russia and reply to it if you'd like to discuss that topic. I am not interested in discussing or defending your imagination.
Oh? How socially conscious do I believe the average American is? When have we ever talked about anything like that whatsoever?
Ah, right, we haven't.
I guess we have reached a point where you will offer nothing more than straw men and patting yourself on the back. I hope that you someday have the courage of your "convictions" and can engage in good faith, especially when it comes to topics like support for genocide.
So maybe you should stop treating trans people like a monolith and develop correct opinions like, "genocide is unacceptable and I should work against it".
This is why parent is correct and you are not.
The irony
Hey look a 20-sometging white dude that excuses the genocide of brown people. What a unique and uncommon development.
Your idea of working against genocide is...torpedoing other positive changes in people's lives by not participating in harm reduction? Interesting choice
I've said nothing remotely like that. Though your attempt to characterize neoliberal genociders as harm reduction is noted.
I do actual work with and for trans people. Tangible things. Not sitting around being flippant about my support for genocide. That's your sin to mull over. Maybe you will forgive yourself some day.
And I applaud your work - however, surely you must understand the risks of a second Trump presidency, given what you do.
And all my "supporting for genocide" amounts to is being stuck with a two-party system. I only "support" it insofar as I must by the virtue of my vote going to the party that enables it (the only 2 with a chance to win do). I made my peace with choosing to accept that the US foreign policy apparatus is going to do these things regardless of which major party is in power, and the best option available of the two is the one that doesn't have a giant playbook for dismantling the few positive things we do have when they take power.
Contrary to what you may think, I truly do largely agree with many of the things being said here, BUT I have determined that the costs of effectively allowing Republicans to win by protesting and not voting for Kamala poses too great a risk to the things I care about. If my sin is weighing the lives of Palestinians today over the millions of climate refugees and minorities that will be harmed or killed by Republicans seizing power in the election, then so be it.
I have already addressed lesser evil logic for supporting genocide. You can respond to that if you'd like.
Incorrect. You can sit quietly under the two party system and be doing a better job than trying to vocally normalize genocide and get other people to think the same.
This also does not require you to vocalize normalizing genocide and telling people it's cool to support genociders. It also does not require you to tokenize trans people as if your support for genociders is somegow in solidarity with trans people.
"I chose to help normalize genocide rather than work against it".
I have already addressed the illogic of lesser evilism. You have neither a personal moral nor strategic justification for what you are doing. You are not, in fact, "realizing" or accepting any kind of insight. You are repeating bog standard PR-tested talking points from the party and its supporters.
No, you do not. You would like to feel like you do, but you actually work in opposition to them, and openly. You are not a friend or an ally of those facing genocide. You are a cheerleader for the genociders in power using their tired talking points. You are even being flippant and joking about genocide.
I have already addressed this.
Do as you like I guess, just don't be surprised if the planet cooks us alive before the revolution happens because we didn't try to minimize damage in the interim ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Kamala doesn't want to help the climate, liberal. She even wants to expand fracking! She just gives it lip service because that's all your fucking "harm reduction" amounts to in most cases, people using different words to characterize the same agenda. It's the same for immigration and it's the same for Israel.
All your "strategy" is possibly capable of is "reducing harm" (read: changing the language used) but never actually gaining ground and then fucking dying all the same.
Yup. There's no other reason to not want the Republicans to get into power, besides the climate, immigration, and Israel, no siree. Not a single other thing that might impact my day to day life
This is deeply disingenuous, because you've been continuously arguing that the Democrats are better on those things when you rattle off your lists in various conversations here. Like, I can sit here all day and think of issues and go through the histories both administrations have with them, but it won't matter that both Trump and Biden did fuck all about trans rights* but you can just keep throwing progressive issues at a wall until I get tired of responding, despite having no ability to prove shit about them.
And come the next conversation with anyone else, you'll keep pretending that Harris is better about immigration and so on, I suppose as a bluff that the people you're talking to don't know any better. It must be comfortable to not believe in anything while playing useful idiot for the Democrats.
*no I don't give a shit about the enlistment thing and neither should you, plus it gets reversed back and forth by executive order anyway
The genocidal candidate you are carrying water for is openly supporting fracking and continuing sanctions on Chinese solar panels (which has resulted in a massive backlog of installations that can't be fulfilled) during peak American oil production, resulting in it being a net exporter of fossil fuels. This is all a consequence of a political system where power flows from caoitalist class interests.
Yet something makes you believe that supporting the thing causing climate change is actually good and smart and "harm reduction" (even while literally being more measurable harm) and that I am irresponsible for organizing against it.
That something is propaganda. But unfortunately you are resistant to questioning it, even up to the point of supporting genocide. Personally, I think that should be a point where anyone should sat, "you know, I should really get my ducks in a row before sharing an opinion".
Alas.
And there's not a single thing the Dems have ever done that's good. Yup.
Look at the fantasies you concoct when you have no reply. You could instead just say, "I hadn't considered that and will think about it" or even not reply. But God forbid a person do anything but fight to the death regardless of merit, eh?