Authoritarian certainly. But Mussolini was fascist, but held left wing beliefs like welfare and relief for the poor and government intervention and ownership.

The rest I agree with.

US Libertarians should theoretically be closer to anarchy than authoritarianism but the need to group together distorts the thinking. Liberalism is probably a better counterweight for authoritarianism.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

government intervention and ownership

I think you're confusing the Authoritarianism elements with it being Left-wing, possibly because what you were taught was Authoritarianism was the Soviet Union and the Nazis, with the focus on the latter being all about their Militarism and violent Ethnic-purity policies (namely, the Holocaust) rather than their Economic policies.

I was born in a country - Portugal - which had Fascism and the Government did way more intervention and owned far more things than it does now, 50 years into Democracy.

Centralization of control is as common in Authoritarian Right-wing systems as it is in Authoritarian Left-wing ones.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world -1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yes, my definition of left vs right is purely bigger government vs smaller government.

But I've just read another definition which is equality of decision making (left) vs hierarchical decision making (right).

How are you defining left vs right?

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

"The greatest good for the greatest number" is pretty much the defining principle of Left-wing in my view.

If you look at the stated policies (not to be confused with what the actual human beings claiming to support those do when they get Power) of the various ideologies within the Left-wing, it's not that objective that changes, it's how to go about maximizing it and the how far do people believe it can be maximized that differs.

Whilst you do see a number of left-wing ideologies which think the will of the individual should be entirely subservient to the State, others believe that it is a "greater good" for people to have more individual freedom than for people having to be entirely subservient to the State. This is the way in which the Authoritarian-Libertarian axis of Politics is expressed with the Left-wing.

[–] Tiresia 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Mussolini was fascist, but held left wing beliefs like welfare and relief for the poor and government intervention and ownership.

Welfare for the in-group is not (exclusively) left-wing. The Nazis had welfare for blonde blue-haired 'aryans' that produced lots of children. Also, neoliberal and conservative western governments love giving welfare to corporations and rich people. Even if your in-group is "all Romans" (in case of the ancient grain dole that Mussolini was inspired by) or "all Italians", if the motivation for welfare is to empower the in-group to exploit the out-group, it's right wing.

Government intervention and ownership are not (exclusively) left-wing. The original right wing - the monarchists in the French parliament - were pro-government intervention and ownership, with the government being embodied by the king. Government spending is consistently higher among Republicans than Democrats. Large ostentatious state projects with kickbacks for the in-group are bread and butter of pretty much every right wing government, from the massive Nazi government-owned holiday park Prora to the Space Launch System. Right-wing governments often forcefully nationalize projects run by the out-group, like Jewish shops in Nazi germany or Black Panther community support networks in the US.

The right wing may cloak themselves in the guise of the free market or of individual liberty or decentralization of power, or in the guise of community and centralization and rights that must be defended at the cost of freedoms. They will present themselves as underdogs and punks and outsiders or as rightful inheritors, powerful leaders, loyalists and patriots. Often they will switch narratives from topic to topic, going from underdogs fighting against the liberal elite who says you can't say slurs anymore to patriots bemoaning the lack of solidarity of people kneeling in protest at a flag.

The one thing that unites them, the one thing that is consistent, is to exploit and oppress the out-group to benefit the in-group.

Contrast communist authoritarianism and mass murder, which were generally justified as being for the good of all mankind.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

We are agreeing that fascism is much more strongly associated with the authoritarian/liberal axis than the left/right axis.

[–] Tiresia 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

No, you disagree with myself and pretty much all historical usage on the definition of "right-wing". Whether it's the original right wing in the parliament of the first French Republic, monarchists in general, 19th century British Tories, imperialists in general, ethno-nationalists, fascists, etc.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

I'm not defining "right wing".

I'm saying fascists can also follow left wing ideas (e.g. Mussolini).