Hey man, if you're not going give a source why can't you just give me some more funny memes at least.
If I'm not your audience like 30 replies deep, who is? Lmao? The one other tankie cheering you on? Preaching to the choir?
Bro, you're the one wasting your time.
I'm here all night.
Hmm... Okay, Quixote.
Nah this is easy. Just snacking and bullshitting while having a few laughs.
Still no source, I see :)
Cool memes, kid. Projecting again, I see.
But alright, buddy sure, just don't forget to film it. I'll be really shocked to see you do anything more than memes and tilting at windmills.
(still haven't found a source, I see)
Oh no! Your pissing into the wind and tilting at windmills from your computer chair is really fighting the good fight, buddy! I'm sure you're totally punching nazis you total badass, you ;)
Only because not enough people punch them. The fear that they instill in others should be instilled in them. Every time they say some shit they should be thinking “will this get me punched if i say this right now?” Every time.
You're probably not familiar with the fact that ProPublica uncovered that right-wing extremist groups both want to incite a race war and they want to see an armed left to both muddy the waters and instigate further violence. They in effect want to bait the left into more preemptive violence because then their BoTh SiDes rhetoric only gets stronger with the apathetic fence sitters.
All this fucking time and all this bluster about punching nazis, and nobody can cite one fucking study or indicator showing that it is actually effective and not incredibly backfiring. You think these fuckers will just sit down quietly? No, they'll increase their recruitment numbers by targeting the likes of the insecure, then point to these videos about showing how these people don't even respect their own laws of their land, so why should they? Then they'll simply continue dehumanizing both you and any other minority group to these gullible suckers, their ranks will rise, and some dipshit will become radicalized and because YOU allegedly punched a nazi, some other dude just went over the breaking-point and decided to shoot up some innocent people. If you're not going to bring sources, then we're all juts speculating and I wager I'm far closer to reality.
Besides, in what realm do you live in that you think you're going to be able to identify nazis outright by obvious tattoos. Yeah, I'm sure you're going to bust into a dive bar in Mississippi and raise hell. The vast majority of these modern nazis have learned that the power of anonymity and blending in is far more useful.
So let's just cut the shit with the IAmVeryBadass punch-a-nazi trope, and sure, you're right... Forget arguing with them online; yes, just cede ground to them — I'm sure that'll do wonders. But hey, yes, go door knocking instead of fist-punching. Whatever is actually productive at preventing fascists from taking over because we sure as shit know there is zero evidence to support preemptive violence against these groups you perceive to be irredeemable nazis.
And if you don't like the laws, then fucking do something and change the laws. But shouting about punching nazis on an online forum is the equivalent of shouting at clouds and pissing in the wind. In a way you prove my point, though: we changed many of those laws. We evolved as a society and we clamped down on a lot of fucked up shit. And despite our grievances today, the reason we're seeing such a backlash from these right-wing extremists is because for the first time in recent history they are actually becoming marginalized from their stranglehold of power from which they once governed behind a thinly-veiled "good Christian" narrative. The rat is backed into the corner and they're lashing out for fear of their diminished position in society. These are growing pains and we're working through them.
But the path to violence will muddy the waters for the dumb fucks in the middle who are so easily duped by their recruitment propaganda in the first place, so naturally you must appeal to the lowest common denominator in society
Okay so I shouldn’t feed the homeless because the end goal is to fix homelessness and poverty and that requires systemic change? Fixing fascism requires systemic change but in the meantime we need to make them fear spreading their ideas. Fixing homelessness/hunger requires systemic change but in the meantime we should feed the homeless.
I'll make a point here to say that I'm not trying to say your feeding the homeless is a bad thing. With respect to addressing symptoms versus root causes, I agree with you. But if feeding the homeless actually led to more homelessness, you wouldn't be doing it, correct? Just as we all thought feeding ducks was so nice but it turns out that's the last thing you're supposed to do. Now this doesn't directly apply to the homeless, but it does directly apply to punching nazis.
Look man, we're all on the same side here generally. I'm not here to defend nazis and I hope you see that. I'm trying to just say to consider an alternative avenue for passion because I don't want you in prison for a felony charge while quite possibly just increasing nazi recruitment when you could've been out doing something far more substantive like door-knocking for Harris instead.
As for teaching kids, I guess to each their own. Words only have power if you give them power. I'm not going to let my kid be baited into felony charges because some dipshit easily baited them into throwing the first punch simply because they said some words that says more about them than it does my kid.
And that's about all I have left in the tank for this conversation. Back to my kids.
Pot, meet kettle. What if I told you that you're engaging in just as much gish gallopping straw-man discourse as you misconstrue my own arguments all the same? Seems quite clear, but I'm sure you'll just conveniently cast aside any rebuttal as more straw-man. Convenient.
No, I didn't say we can always legislate the problem away — I merely said punching a Nazis isn't proven to be a better solution
No, I didn't say that debating JD vance will stop bomb threats (weird tangential straw-man) — I merely said that punching nazis isn't proven to be a better solution.
These are, in fact, demonstrable straw-men to my arguments. (Say, how about we grow up and skip the whole straw-men deflective tropes?)
Ultimately: You Still. Haven't. Provided. A Single. Modicum. Of Evidence. That Punching Nazis. Reduces Nazis. That's it. Nothing more
Also, it's incredibly interesting that suddenly you're trying to shy away from the notion of punching a nazi isn't preemptive. Quite intriguing. If you actually believed this, then we wouldn't even have much issue.
I think it's really interesting you claim yourself to be an expert on this matter of fascism while exclaiming I am not; tell me, what are your credentials? What makes you think that? I'm not seeing any groundbreaking counter-arguments being presented here. I'm not seeing a single piece of evidence proving your case that "Punch a Nazi" is wise.
Fascists and Nazis start off as weird outsiders that find solace and comfort in male power fantasy. You want to get rid of fascists? Get rid of the systemic forces that breed them, wealth inequality, underfunded education, dwindling employment and low pay.
I don't disagree with this.
But once they’re a fucking Nazi all they understand is Nazi shit.
There are literal organizations for people who've been duped by this shit and got out run by the very guys who got out of it.. The problem is your claim is just not true. Once you're Nazi, it doesn't mean you're always a Nazi. But do yourself a favor and ask the founder of that organization what he thinks of the Punch a Nazi movement and whether it's effective. Considering they once were one, they probably have a bit more insight, don't you think? I'll wait.
Like I get it, I hate the scum too. From Boogaloo to Proud Boys to Oathkeepers to 1%ers to the base and so on... These people, uh, let's just say aren't deep thinkers. Yes, there are fuckwits across the globe from Russia to Germany. Yet there is a method to off-ramp these people from their path of radicalization, and I have yet to see any evidence that this "Punch a Nazi" thing reduces their numbers and doesn't actually increase recruitment. The key is indeed making a more compelling case both to the fence sitters, as well as sincerely reaching out.
Anyways, interesting conversation. Life and kids call and I think we've exhausted the points we both wanted to make.
It would be a pretty easy argumentative strategy to simply accuse everything as being a straw-man when your arguments are repeatedly, consistently undermined by both facts and sources. At this point, I feel like I'm having a discussion with a Trump supporter the hop-scotch deflection is so profound.
I explained in detail that I know the phrase and its history better than you; that you haven't evinced a cogent counterargument is not my problem.
Notice: I am STILL waiting for any semblance of evidence that "Punching a nazi," actually reduces radicalization in any way. Several comments and nothing.
So in the meantime and until you actually produce said evidence, if you want to stop fascists then just get off your computer and go ask your local Democratic campaign what you can do to stop Trump. $10 they won't say, "Punch a nazi" is the most effective use of your time. After all, you don't want to be a convicted felon prior to November, do you?
I do however mock and deride language where a nazi or fascist might hide. Much like your defense of a Nazis’ right to exist.
Now that is a straw-man; and unlike you, I will actually back up the reason why: I never defended Nazi's right to exist; to the contrary and on the record, I'd much rather they not exist — but since at least me and the other user have established that we aren't going to utilize genocide to get to that point, let alone exclaim that justifies their actions, then we need put our little thinking caps on and figure out more constructive ways at deprogramming them. I'm betting you didn't even watch that Ted talk, did you? Finally, I don't mind mockery; I mind preemptive physical violence. Therein lies the difference.
I'm pretty positive this is a bullshit meme and that bloomberg poll was from mid June of 2016.
The polls tightened at the end, especially following Comey's October Surprise.
Nevertheless, we should fight like we're 10 points behind.
Don't get me wrong, I know they won't afford me the same benefit of the doubt. It just hasn't yet been evidenced to me that punching nazis actually creates less and not more. So I find it kind of amusing I get these unsubstantiated claims of straw-men despite one's own massive amount of deflection to my points.
You really want to stop the nazis? Quit the IAmVeryBadass bullshit about punching nazis — instead, get off your ass and go punch on doors by canvassing and getting out the vote. Your time will be better served than this romanticizing of punching a nazi online when you'll never do it anyway.
Don’t rape them, don’t torture them, hell even killing is too far 99% of the time. Fascists thrive on being viewed as strong men and nothing is more humiliating to them than being taken down physically. Words mean nothing to the antisemite
I'm glad we have established the fact that there ARE limits to Intolerance to Intolerance. We can work from here.
The reason Nazis and the KKK rally is partially the same reason the Westboro Baptist yell incendiary remarks: because it's legal, and along comes some dumbass who can't contain his temper and they throw the first punch. It gets recorded, then their recruitment surges and that person gets thrown in jail for battery charges while they bait lawsuits for damages. Being taken down physically doesn't do jack shit. You know what strong men actually hate? Mockery. There's a reason the mockery and satire of Charlie Chaplin got under the skin of Hitler so much. There's a reason from Mark Twain to Jon Stewart have been so influential, because they tend to belittle the strong man... And they like nothing more than being belittled.
They know no shame, but they do HATE embarrassment. It's why Putin has images of him being perceived as a gay clown. It's why Xi of China outlawed images of Winnie the Pooh. You don't even need violence to undermine these dumb fucks if you act early enough.
What astounds me is that people will spam the wikipedia page for Paradox of Tolerance, but where's the spamming of the Ethics of Reciprocation? The Golden Rule? The Silver Rule? A remarkable double-standard where you are actually elevating the violence before anyone else.
So hopefully you're not making the case that preemptive violence is the only means at stopping nazis.
So please show me: Is there any actual, substantive evidence whatsoever that preemptively punching nazis prevents rising fascism? Or does it just make you feel good and tough because you punched a guy with a swastika in a mosh pit and you're trying rationalize it? As though in that moment you were storming the beaches of Normandy or something...? Anyways it shouldn't even be hard to convince me because I, too, hate fascists and if this was a legitimate strategy then that's great. But what ultimately, almost inevitably, happens is that it seems to backfire, muddy the waters, serve you prison time, and then foster greater recruitment among these sad individuals.
Their words are violence. Physical is not the only form of violence. They make minorities fear going outside. It is proportional to make them fear spreading their message through the only means they understand. They are violating the social contract they are no longer covered by the contract
Sorry, that's not how it work. Again, review Brandenburg v. Ohio. Someone saying mean things to you that doesn't amount to an imminent violence or a direct threat doesn't warrant punching. If so, then you're falling for the exact same sort of ends-justify-means trap that Nazis themselves use and that should concern you. Hate speech is protected as free speech in America for a reason because if it wasn't then the definition of Hate could easily be skewed into suppressing whichever "Them" group is unpopular in the moment.
The problem is that you're going about fighting fascism the wrong way. If you didn't put the cart before the horse, then it should already be self-evident that fascism is wrong. So this requires going backwards and analyzing why your messaging strategy is failing. Why there is a vector into this radicalization in the first place. Is it genetic predisposition? (hopefully not or at least the bar for evidence is enormous, lest you're a racist yourself). Is it simply a matter of environmental factors from low education to toxic parenting and diminished opportunity? No differently than the inner-city violence to the white Appalachian poverty & crime, this is probably more likely. So instead of going, "hur let's punch nazis!", perhaps we need to assess what are better strategies, from satire & mockery, to actually tackling the key vectors into which a "normie" gets radicalized in the first place. Is this as exciting? No. It's the harder, more constructive work.
TED Talk - My Descent into America's neo-Nazi movement — and how I got out
You ask about Richard Spencer. The reason you haven't seen him, or Michael Flynn, or any of the other ostensibly right-wing nationalist scum is because Trump isn't in office and their job is to drum up attention from within their own base of echo-chambers. A year later following that interview, he held a neo-nazi rally. What if I told you that recruitment following that video probably ticked up?
Like, I don't know if you recognize that what you're doing is opening the pathway to radicalization in your own right. Let's take an extreme example to prove the point: A terrorist group, such as Hamas. People don't wake up and go, "gee, let's go murder civilians!" First it starts with, "punching an Israeli occupier to our land is okay!" and steadily progresses. This sort of behavior is emblematic of quite literally every single fucking extremist group in the world, and that's not different if you're fighitng for a just cause or not.
Congrats you discovered law isn’t morality. I will happily give the homeless food in cities where that is illegal.
Congrats, you discovered what feels good isn't necessarily effective in your end goal.
Lol, lmao even
I love how this was completely and entirely deflected with a modicum of substance. Once again, proving the point that you're in the "Punch a nazi" thing based on how it feels good to you — not because it actually yields productive results.
I mean, let's put aside that they threw the first actual punch in the following scenarios but — didn't we collectively "punch" nazis in the 1940s? Didn't we collectively punch nazis during the American civil war, and how did that turn out for us... They all vanished, is that right...?
So maybe... Just maybe... We need to put our thinking hats on to figure out an alternative solution to the problem.
Really? They believe you should only attack the intolerant? I thought they wanted to attack me a trans person for existing in front of society, or interacting with children, or because I’m simply an abomination.
Let me make this very clear: I am not excusing the fallacy of their belief set, but yes, they do (wrongly) feel they are fighting an intolerant takeover of their own existence. That's how THEY would frame it, wrong though it may be. They then justify their actions because of this perceived preemptive intolerance. Naturally it's total bullshit and what they're really fighting for is the maintaining of their historically privileged positions in society. Still, that doesn't change the underlying point I'm making. Both circumstances justify preemptive physical violence via ends-justify-the-means mentality.
I mean fuck, man, we teach our kids the same shit: That crossing the verbal-physical barrier of aggression is a no-go with your siblings. Now if they throw the actual first physical punch, then sure.
By the way, if you think it's too far to kill, punching also more frequently than you realize can easily lead to death. If you're uninformed on this, I can provide further sources.
That he thought got 'em in that video and decided to post it is absolutely hilarious.
"mUh rEgImE!"