alt

joined 1 year ago
[–] alt@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

the best os-design there is: the unix-like system.

Couple of questions:

  1. Is there even any scientific basis to this statement?
    • If yes, would you be so kind to cite sources as I got trouble finding peer-reviewed articles on the matter.
    • If not, would you be able to make a logically sound argument on why that is the case?
  2. Why Unix-like and not Unix? Wouldn't Unix be the actual "original vision"?
[–] alt@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

In case you're bored enough to read my ramblings and/or interested in what I understood and how, then consider reading the spoiler below.

spoiler


Fam, you're all over the place.

Because you did an awful job at pointing at the supposed contradiction, I'll have to analyze your excuse of an elaboration so that it somehow starts to make sense if at all:

A contradiction consists of N statements that logically contradict with each other; for the sake of making it more precise we'll refer to these statements as P, Q, R, S etc. After we've established this, we can move on to find what these alleged statements are from your comments. My best take would be:

(Supposed) Contradicting Statements:

  • P: systemd is the only init that's beyond a particular level of excellence and/or feature set.^[1]^
  • Q: Some combinations of distro + DE are cumbersome and unwieldy at best if systemd is not used.^[2]^

Perhaps some other related statements that are either implied or a given/fact:

  • R: Kicksecure uses systemd as its init.
  • S: Modern distros use an init.
  • T: Default init is chosen based on preference^[3]^.
  • U: Kicksecure has to use systemd because P despite not being in favor of some aspects of its design.

Please feel free to notify me if I missed the mark!

Don't you think that P and Q are actually complementary to one other?


No, not at all.

The crux might be here. But I'm not sure where exactly you might have tripped over. Was it because I said "opponents" instead of "(some) opponents"? Was it because I said "out of necessity", while elsewhere I said "don’t allow any differentiation in init or make it very cumbersome and unwieldy at best", but in this case they aren't contradictory statements. Was it the fact that Devuan exists? But, this assumes that any of the inits found on Devuan are somehow as mature and feature-rich as systemd. Which, unfortunately, is simply not the case. (I'm hopeful that dinit and s6 might reach maturity soon, though.)

So trying to use Kicksecure without systemd would be very cumbersome and unwieldy at best.

Exactly, that was my point.

Perhaps Madaidan should’ve used Devuan as a starting point instead.

It's a team effort, I don't even know if he started working on Kicksecure from its inception^[4]^. They might also simply be victims of the sunk-cost fallacy. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if -to them- systemd's pros simply outweigh its cons. Which, curiously, gets us back to the entire point of my original comment; viable alternatives to systemd don't exist. This painful truth is not only sad and unfortunate, but perhaps even worrisome for the future of Linux.


  1. From: "systemd has become so good that even opponents can’t deny its merits and continue to make use of it for the time being out of necessity"
  2. From: "some combinations of distro + DE don’t allow any differentiation in init or make it very cumbersome and unwieldy at best."
  3. Preference is arguably too broad of a term, but I wanted to make clear that distro maintainers have different priorities.
  4. This page suggest otherwise, simply because someone else is referred to as founder. Though, ultimately, I don't know.

If not 😜; did I understand you correctly in that the mere existence of Devuan is the supposed contradiction?

[–] alt@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

I mostly want to discourage distro hopping with the belief that they’re missing out on a program or desktop, only to end up on windows because they’re tired of reinstalling everything.

Thank you for being thoughtful! I just wanted to add some nuance with my previous comment.

[–] alt@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

One important thing you need to know about distros: they’re all the same under the hood.

This is true for the traditional model in which the package manager is the main differentiator between distros. Therefore Arch, Debian, Fedora, openSUSE etc and their derivatives (which make up about 90% of the distros found on DistroWatch) are indeed mostly the same.

But the likes of Gentoo and NixOS etc don't quite fit the bill. Granted, a new user should only very rarely (if ever) start their Linux journeys on any of these advanced distros.

[–] alt@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Wayland released in 2008, so it makes sense for them to stop putting any effort soon after.

[–] alt@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Software support seems lacking.

Compared to the AUR, the offering of any other distro will feel lacking (besides this one). Consider an Arch-distrobox for access to the AUR or install the Nix package manager on Fedora through Determinate Systems' installer.

Xorg wiki page.

Fedora's Wiki leaves a lot to desire in general, especially if you've come from the ArchWiki. On that note, I would argue only ArchWiki and Gentoo's Wiki are excellent showcases of how the Wiki of a distro should look like.

Furthermore, Fedora has been the first to enable Wayland by default (since 2016 in fact). Therefore, I don't find it that surprising that Fedora didn't think it's worth putting man-hours to the documentation of a project for which its sunset was in sight.

[–] alt@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

How so? I literally don't see it. My apologies if I come across as obnoxious, but I simply don't understand how I might have contradicted myself. I never explicitly mentioned Debian anyways, so why did you feel the need to mention that as somehow being related to a supposed contradiction.

[–] alt@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago (6 children)

is there any reason why I should even care about the freedom of init system?

Freedom of choice! It's troublesome if distros and/or DEs rely so heavily on systemd to do their bidding. So much so, that some combinations of distro + DE don't allow any differentiation in init or make it very cumbersome and unwieldy at best. I'm not interested in making systemd a necessary part of Linux. Therefore other inits not only have to exist, but should be 'competitive' as well. Which, to be frank, is currently not the case.

Another concern is that systemd is by no means a minimalist approach. Which beyond bloat, also has security implications. More information can be found in this (infamous) guide by Madaidan; security researcher on multiple distros known for taking security and privacy very seriously like e.g. Kicksecure and Whonix. Interestingly, while Madaidan discourages the use of systemd in that guide, it's still heavily relied on in Kicksecure; one of the distros he works on. I think this is a perfect illustration of how systemd has become so good that even opponents can't deny its merits and continue to make use of it for the time being out of necessity.

[–] alt@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nope I downloaded VLC through the software manager.

Interesting to hear that it caused so many issues then 🤔. FWIW, I've personally been using MPV since I'm on Linux. I don't remember the exact reason, but if my memory serves me right; support for it on Linux somehow seemed superior compared to VLC. Related; e.g. it's actually found in Fedora's repos.

I’m going to do this for one week, doing daily updates and trying my god-damned best to get this shit software to do what the community says it can do.

Kudos for sticking with it for a bit longer! Please feel free to seek help from the community; though be mindful of your language if possible, I'm sure it will contribute to more people reaching out.

I managed the get Nvidia working on 39, which looks like an accomplishment given the other post linked about Nvidia and issues with 39.

Well done! Please note that a random update related to Nvidia might break your system in the future. If you don't want to deal with that in the future, running one of those Nvidia Images from uBlue ensures that from happening in the first place. This offers some explanation to what it achieves and how. TL;DR:

"We've slipstreamed the Nvidia drivers right onto the operating system image. Steps that once took place on your local laptop are now done in a continuous integration system in GitHub. Once they are complete, the system stamps out an image which then makes it's way to your PC.

No more building drivers on your laptop, dealing with signing, akmods, third party repo conflicts, or any of that. We've fully automated it so that if there's an issue, we fix it in GitHub, for everyone.

But it's not just installation and configuration: We provide Nvidia driver versions 525, 520, and 470 for each of these. You can atomically switch between any of these, so if your driver worked perfectly on a certain day and you find a regression you just rebase to that image."

Btw mounting a NAS is basic, basic office environment functionality. I don’t know how Linux ever expects to take over in the office if mounting a NAS drive is this stupid and difficult.

I ~~hope~~ am sure there's an easy way, we just have to figure out what that is. Wish you the best of luck, though!

Btw, if the idea of Nobara did interest you, perhaps you should consider Bazzite; which is a project related to uBlue, but which -like Nobara- tries to be properly setup for gaming from the get-go.

[–] alt@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Couple of things that might have tampered your experience:

  • Nvidia. This should come to no one as a surprise, but unfortunately the experience still leaves a lot to desire. Unfortunately, even changing to Nobara didn't help you out there. If you're still dead set on Fedora, I would recommend the Nvidia Images of uBlue which are also mentioned in the Troubleshooting part of Fedora's documentation.
  • Using Fedora as a new user. Before people start shitting on me, I'm a proud Fedora user and it has been my daily driver ever since the day I've switched to Linux. But -like Debian- Fedora's strict stance on FOSS requires one to take additional steps during initial setup/configuration after installation. The aforementioned images from uBlue (once again) help to solve that.
  • I assume you just did the thing on Windows and straight up downloaded VLC off the internet and thought it would work out like that. I wonder if you do the same on your Android/iOS/macOS device. If I'm mistaken, then please feel free to skip the rest of this paragraph. If not, then please consider to read on. So, while it is possible to download software directly off the internet through your browser, this is in 99% of the cases simply inferior to grabbing your software the intended way; through the installed package manager(s). On Fedora, that would have been dnf and/or flatpak. As VLC isn't even found in Fedora's repos (though it is found in RPM Fusion's repos), your best bet would have been installing it as a flatpak. Which in this case, could have been through the built-in 'storefront' with a GUI (it's called Software on GNOME) or through the terminal with the flatpak install org.videolan.VLC -y command.
  • Regarding Media Server, I simply have no experience setting that up. Therefore I hope that others could chime in to offer their support.

but y’all are dirty liars. Linux is still bullshit and has been since I first installed it over 20 years ago. What the hell has the community even accomplished if it still sucks this much dick to use?

This doesn't help your cause. Please refrain from saying such things in the future.


Edit: I just noticed this thread. It might simply be the case that Fedora 39 isn't playing nice (yet). Consider installing Fedora 38 for the time being instead.

[–] alt@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Lots of great answers here already so I will only address a couple of things that haven't been mentioned:

Regarding Fedora Silverblue:

  • Currently, Fedora Atomic Desktops are in a major shift to accept OCI container images for delivery of packages. This means that the built image becomes one compliant to OCI and that we boot into an OCI container as our system. As OCI images are relatively declarative (not to the extent that NixOS does (yet)), it becomes possible to have a set of config files (most importantly, the so-called Containerfile) in which your system is 'declared'/'configd'. In case you're interested into how this looks/works, consider taking a look at uBlue's startingpoint or if you're more interested in the scope of configuration into Bazzite and/or Bluefin.
  • apx is available as a COPR on Fedora Atomic Desktops.
  • Nix can be installed on Fedora Atomic Desktops using Determinate Systems' installer.

Regarding Vanilla OS:

  • They're also moving to a model that's very close to where Fedora Atomic Desktops is heading towards. So, expect a similar way to config/'declare' your system.

What are your thoughts on the ~~three~~ four distros mentioned above?

It's a question of polish if you'd ask me. With Fedora Atomic Desktops and NixOS being advantageous due to being more established and better funded. I wouldn't write off Vanilla OS yet as they seem to know what they're doing. Though, I wouldn't keep my hopes up for blendOS as its main developer was unaware of which MAC was configured by default on blendOS (spoiler alert: none, at least at the time).

Furthermore, NixOS is literally its own thing and unfortunately infamous for its steep learning curve. If you can afford to learn and conquer NixOS, then NixOS should be the recommendation; unless (like me) you seek SELinux on your systems.

Between Fedora Atomic Desktops and Vanilla OS; Vanilla OS is still in its major rewrite/revamp. The alpha builds are there, but I wouldn't recommend using those on production machines. Fedora Atomic Desktops, on the other hand, has been going strong for a while now and the uBlue-team has even succeeded in making the OCI-stuff accessible for the general (Linux) public. So if you want to switch now and NixOS is/seems too hard; then Fedora Atomic Desktops it is. On that note, I recommend to check out the uBlue project.

Which ones are the most interesting, and for what reasons?

Honestly, all of them are really interesting, but NixOS does the most unique stuff; with only Guix doing something similar within the Linux landscape. To give you a taste of some of the wild stuff found on NixOS; there's the so-called Impermanence module which -to my knowledge- happens to be the closest thing to a usable stateless system we've got; period. Consider reading this excellent blog post in case you're interested to know what this entails.

[–] alt@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Thanks for pointing that out! It has since been fixed.

view more: ‹ prev next ›