No, it doesn't matter that he's an active participant in the apparatus that's creating the genocide, because if he's in office there's less genocide. Which is the important part, and pretending otherwise is sophistry. If you abstain from voting, you are increasing the likelihood of more genocide and if you discourage others from voting, you are an active participant in the overall social apparatus that is probabilistically increasing the amount of genocide.

The utility calculation is dead simple: more votes for Biden in key states makes more genocide less likely, and discouraging people from voting for Biden makes more genocide more likely. Therefore, discouraging people from voting for Biden is a pro-genocide strategy and voting for Biden in battleground states is an anti-genocide strategy. You should vote for Biden unless you live in a solid blue state, and even then it's not a bad idea.

[–] Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 22 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

I also agree that it would be better if Biden actually did something to lessen the genocide

I can't believe you're justifying it as "only genocide abroad." Like wtaf?

Tell the DNC to take their head out of their ass or you're getting the fucking orange you dork.

[–] yozul@beehaw.org 43 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Not doing everything possible to prevent something is not the same as actively doing it. It's still bad, but if you seriously think it would be a good idea to let fascists take over America because Biden isn't marching troops into Gaza or whatever it is you want him to do, then hopefully there are enough sane people left to make you irrelevant.

[–] Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Millions in bribes to sell them missiles.

All you seem to care is that the missiles are rainbow colored, which seems like you're entirely missing the point of voting for a leftist.

[–] yozul@beehaw.org 33 points 7 months ago (1 children)

If you think the US government gives a shit about "millions in bribes" then you have no idea how numbers work.

I'm not delusional enough to think I'm voting for a leftist. That's never what Biden was. I'm voting to stop fascism. Socialism isn't going to win at the ballot box. Elections are how we stop things from getting worse while implementing real solutions. If all you're doing is whining about presidents then you are a bad leftist.

[–] Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I mean I'm perfectly happy with a 3rd party vote. And I'm desperately praying you libs jump on board by then.

Otherwise, imma blame y'all 🥰

[–] yozul@beehaw.org 38 points 7 months ago (2 children)

And I'm hoping you grow up and learn how people organize themselves instead of wasting your life feeling morally superior for accomplishing nothing while isolating yourself from all the people you need on your side to change anything.

[–] Hathaway@lemmy.zip 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Just curious, do you live in one of fewer than 10% of districts that’s actually a battleground area? Otherwise, sorry, your vote is meaningless anyway. Gerrymandering guarantees that! Sorry if your feeling of moral superiority fades now.

At the end of the day you can’t blame the user for making do with a systemically broken process. For me, someone like 90+% of Americans, my vote actually, provably, does not matter. At all. I would rather be a part of the record setting number of 3rd party voters, signaling to the system, that we know it’s fucked, and we’re not going to play anymore.

If my vote mattered, I 1000% agree with you. But it doesn’t, so I don’t.

[–] yozul@beehaw.org 13 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Okay, so first of all, yes, I do live in one of those 10% of districts.

Secondly, you don't even have a candidate, let alone a popular one. It'll be a miracle if an actual leftist candidate can pull 3% of the vote to come in fourth behind the Libertarian candidate.

It is less dangerous to cast a protest vote if you're in a district that is dramatically unbalanced, but if you think you'll make a difference by doing it you are going to be sorely disappointed in November.

[–] Hathaway@lemmy.zip 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I’m glad you do! Then I would be in your boat as well. Your vote matters, sincerely, for the rest of us, use it.

I have yet to say who I’ll vote for, but, I’m not really a leftist, so likely not their non existent candidate.

I don’t think it’s going to be a difference. Or be anymore valuable than voting for a main party, ~~but, it seems every election, the # of votes not going to republican or democrat is growing. (I don’t actually have the data to back that but I think I heard that the last 2 elections, I can try to look if it’s a big deal.)~~ I would rather vote in a manner that, hopefully, elected officials can at least put into a data set, that says “hmmm looks like Americans are more and more disillusioned by this” and maybe that can lead to something. For me, in a not competitive area, that’s way more compelling than the status quo if you get me.

[–] yozul@beehaw.org 8 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The number of third party votes has gone up and down a little, but over the last 40 years the only third party candidate to get over 5% of the vote in a presidential election was Ross Perot. 2020 actually had very low third party support. The most popular third party candidate left of the Republican party in the last 40 years was Ralph Nader in 2000, and he got about 2.5% of the vote. There will almost certainly be more people voting for third parties in 2024 than there were in 2020, but unless something very weird happens between now and November it will probably just be going back to normal. 3-4% Libertarian and 1-2% Green. That's not gonna do much of anything.

[–] Hathaway@lemmy.zip 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Are you trying to miss my point? Whether I vote or not is actually meaningless. Nothing I do is going to “do much of anything.”

That’s the point. Guess what, the party that best represents me when it comes to voting season, is anything but the status quo. Because the status quo doesn’t work for me. Simple as that. If I vote blue, doesn’t matter, if I vote red, doesn’t matter. There’s 0 moral grandstanding. My vote is actually 100% meaningless, (in other words: empty, hollow, insignificant, mindless, nonsense, nonsensical, pointless, purposeless, senseless, unmeaning, vacuous). Unless it’s at a local level.

Voting anything other than status quo at least makes it worth my time to go stand it line, for me. It’s how I personally justify wasting a few hours of my day. And that’s true for 90% of Americans whether they want to believe it or not. Voting is meaningless. This “democracy” is broken.

[–] yozul@beehaw.org 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Look, I get it. I've spent most of my life living in a very red district in a very blue state. That's not true now, and I'm happy to be taking advantage of it, but I understand. Just remember to actually vote at your local level. It makes more difference in your day to day life than who is president anyway. I'm just trying to be clear about what's going on. Historically and this November.

[–] Hathaway@lemmy.zip 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I do appreciate the fact check. Especially because I did say votes were growing for 3rd party, and that isn’t true. I just don’t understand the moral high horses people get on around this time, which again, in your circumstance, is very valid. But, that’s an increasingly shrinking number of Americans that can say what you do. It’s sad. Just keep that in the back of your mind, basically, unless they’re your neighbor, odds are, their vote also doesn’t matter. Like at all. It actively depresses me haha I would like to live somewhere where I feel like I had a voice.

And yes, locally, I’m getting more involved! I live in a small town of 3000 so yeah, my votes feels impactful and something I actually take seriously. You also tend not to have nut jobs because they’re not worried about such massive hot button problems. I like local government lol

[–] yozul@beehaw.org 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Cool. It's easy to misread tone in a forum like this, so we kinda almost lost the plot there for a minute, but in the end I think we ended up back on the same page. And yeah, I absolutely understand how frustrating it is to have your vote in the big headline grabbing elections be completely meaningless. It sucks. I'm glad you're getting involved where it matters most though. If we want real change it's going to have to filter up from the bottom, not be ordained from the top down.

[–] Hathaway@lemmy.zip 4 points 7 months ago

100%. And yeah, I figured it was something like that, I’m so terrible at conveying how I’m actually coming across over text so sorry if I was combative.

I wasn’t trying to take away from what you were saying at all, cause like I said, I actually agree with like 95% of what you’ve said, I’m just totally disenfranchised with things on a federal level.

Again though, like I have been saying, you’re in an increasingly small number of Americans that can actually say they have a tangible voice right now, make it count! I just wish it applied to more. Good luck and good voting, I hope you get the outcome you want.

[–] Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Read the title mate. Enjoy your day :).

[–] yozul@beehaw.org 19 points 7 months ago

Minor problem. I'm neither liberal nor angry. I'm trying to get you to understand that purity tests on Lemmy are at best completely useless, and realistically make you a liability to real leftists. What do you think you are accomplishing here? What have you ever done in your life that actually ever made anything better for a single person?

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

leftist

i just wanted to point out biden and democrats are firmly right wing.

that was it, carry on

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 20 points 7 months ago

Their point was clearly that the total amount of genocide is less in that scenario. It takes an extremely uncharitable reading to imagine that they are saying that genocide doesn't matter if it happens elsewhere (and one that ignores all of the surrounding context within the text itself).

[–] catsarebadpeople@sh.itjust.works 14 points 7 months ago

You took that out of context on purpose. Stfu if you can't at least debate in good faith

[–] EndlessApollo@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

You say this now like you're not gonna refuse to vote for biden if he takes enough meaningful steps towards stopping the genocide. You genocidal libs are all the same, desperate to make sure nobody votes uncommitted in the primaries and rabidly downvote anything remotely critical of biden, yet too afraid to come out and say you want more dead Palestinians. Go to hell 🌸

[–] Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 7 months ago

I'm not sure how much of what drugs you're talking, but it's obviously the wrong ammount.

[–] NoLifeGaming@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Both Republicans and democrats and no matter the president has been bad abroad for others. We should not vote Biden to set a precedence and get some of our voting power back. If you vote red/blue no matter what then your vote or voice doesn't matter.

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago

That would be a great idea if there weren't two supreme court seats ready to be replaced in the next four years.

Siezing control of the courts has already given the far right incredible control over life in the US, and they're looking to cement that control as much as they can.

You're not only talking about fucking over vulnerable people for the next four years, you're actually talking about fucking over vulnerable people for decades.