I look fowards to seeing them suddenly decide it wasn't a war crime in six months when it comes out Ukraine did it. It's hilarious how fast people have memory holed Nordstream.
this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2023
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Do you have an actual retort? Nordstream was the responsibility of the USA (and Ukraine by extension). Both of these instances seem very similar, and given that one party has a history of doing exactly this sort of thing and then proceeding to blame the other party, I'm not sure how you can be so certain one way or the other.
This is not to mention that the linked article (from what I skimmed on the horrible website) doesn't even include any "evidence"; the vote was not based on facts or evidence turned up via investigation and was therefore premature and not founded in reality.
I don't really care what Ukraine does to defend its country mate. We in Europe were depending too much on Russian oil, which directly funds the Russian government. And look, it was a few rough months with increased gas prices but that made governments all over Europe realise they had to diversify. Can't blame Ukraine for trying everything in its power to stop the warmongers. It's not like they're bombing civilians.
But sure compare that to flooding complete cities.
I'm not sure you understood my comment, or maybe I'm not understanding yours.
Can’t blame Ukraine for trying everything in its power to stop the warmongers.
From where I stand, it seems they are more than happy to themselves be warmongers (that is, prolong the war), as long as they think they can win (or can convince those supporting them that they can win). But that's not the topic of that comment.
Russia was likely not responsible for flooding cities via the destruction of the dam. Considering how recent it is nobody can be certain, but things point not towards Russia but towards Ukraine.
I brought up the USA/Ukraine destruction of the Nordstream pipeline as evidence that they are perfectly willing to do this exact thing and lie about it^1.
Here's a quick overview and a more in-depth look at why it seems unlikely that it wasn't Ukraine's doing.
By "prolong the war" you actually mean "defend their borders" but cool. How dare they not roll over, have they learned nothing about the goodwill and trustworthiness of the Russian government after Crimea in 2014?
Perhaps I should've said "invaders" instead of warmongers, I'll give you that.
By “prolong the war” you actually mean “defend their borders” but cool
No, in fact I do mean "prolong the war". Defending the borders is prolonging the war. The only act that is not prolonging the war is ending the war. You can't euphemize it.
Edit to add: Not sure why you bring up Crimea, if over 95% of the votes are to return to Russian control in a referendum, how can you imply it was not an act of "goodwill and trustworthiness".
If you want to talk about being untrustworthy, acting without goodwill, and outright deceitfulness, you'd need to simply realize that a USA-backed coup in 2014 caused problems, and now the USA is somehow supposed to be seen as acting with goodwill here. It should be transparent the motives of the USA, especially to those it doesn't care that die in its proxy war.
From the look of their replies you can see they're not interested in an actual debate, they will just repeat the same tired argument over and over again. Next thing you know they will call you a "tankie".
Also obligatory reminder that they admitted they have plans to blow up the dam and were attacking it with missiles in the past
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/29/ukraine-offensive-kharkiv-kherson-donetsk/
It's not even the first time UA blown up their own dam (among other things):
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-flood-infrastructure.html
Not to mention it was strategically important target for Russia. Combined with what you linked, anyone still blaming Russia have to have serious problems with their cognitive ability.
Or be openly a side in the conflict, like the European Parliament.
Maybe the answer isn‘t clear cut. The place is a warzone and the dam could be collateral damage. Both sides probably damaged the dam before it collapsed, unintentionally or not. Whether russia or ukraine dealt the last blow is still unknown. If it even was intentional we don‘t know. But of course both sides will point fingers with their respective propaganda. I refuse to believe anything unless there‘s proof.
In fairness, while both could have damaged it, if Russia weren’t there in the first place this wouldn’t have happened either so I’m fine with pointing fingers at them until proven otherwise in this case.
When NordStream exploded, everybody blamed Russia. A year later we learned that it was Ukraine.
Who is to say the same isn't going on now?
The European parliament is involved in the war with leopard tanks, only unafilliated parties can be are trustworthy.
A bit premature, since nobody seems to know what exactly happened. They'd need to actually do an investigation and build a case, instead they just do a vote based on vibes.
Europe is actively involved in the war, you can't expect neutrality from them.
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