One of the devs also pointed out on GitHub that by showing total user count, it favors older instances, which is exactly the case with Lemmy.ml you are describing
this post was submitted on 08 Jun 2023
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Lemmy
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Everything about Lemmy; bugs, gripes, praises, and advocacy.
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True, we should do everything to make users spread over different instances, and not end up with a "main" instance like mastodon.social.
I agree. Here's a mockup I made of an alternative design that I think would be much more effective at attracting new users. Instead of presenting user count as a raw number, we should instead present it as a level of network traffic, which is a more helpful way of thinking about it that won't push prospective users away.
Thinking more about this as I respond to other people... Another good thing might be to present some of the most active communities on different instances. It would give people something more concrete to entice them into the ecosystem then the abstract "join this server that's aspiring to be a safe space." What does that even mean?
I also feel like new users (me) will get intimidated by having to choose a server, without knowing what it means. Are you stepping into a walled garden? Does the server you're on matter? If it does, why? How do I choose where I should join? I think there is too much choice and not enough pertinent info for a new user.
This looks great! /u/nutomic thoughts?
This is a great idea!
Lemmy users are not the only ones who can post, comment and upvote/downvote.
Any kbin or mastodon user can also interact with us here. This is the fediverse, after all. That's why the activity doesn't match Lemmy's userbase.
People come in waves and also leave again. Most of these accounts are probably dormant / forgotten about.
I saw a GIF today showing the growth of user accounts on Lemmy instances and
Lemmy.ml(for example) was over 30000 and many of the other servers were in the 100s, approaching 1000. That's a HUGE difference and indicates a community that is 10 times (or more) more active than the initial numbers...
join-lemmy.org shows monthly active users numbers, which seems to me to be a pretty good activity metric.
- Registered user accounts is a poor metric. Accounts that register, log in once, and never come back may as well not exist. They're not reading, commenting, voting, or participating. A graph showing registered but inactive users is misleading.
- Monthly active counts probably underestimate active users right now because the numbers are changing so fast. Earlier today, the front page of
lemmy.mlshowed ~1800 currently active user but a daily active count of ~500... which is obviously some kind of lagging average that isn't fully representing the influx of the last few days. But these lagging averages are a very temporary problem, and are probably good on-balance. We'll find out next month how many of the surge of accounts are still active... no one can predict that right now... but moving averages do a good job of smoothing quick spikes and showing long-term trends. - As other commenters have noted, it's possible to post and comment on Lemmy communities from other apps in the Fediverse like kbin and mastodon. So logged-in users may undercount active-users. If monthly unique posters/commenters/voters could be easily counted, that would be a better number to show than logged-in users maybe. But I expect the numbers aren't so different. My impression is that Lemmy's userbase is quite a lot bigger than kbin's. And I dunno how much mastodon interact we see, but for speculative reasons I'm not convinced it's big relative to native Lemmy users.
- Finally, the lemmyverse isn't all that big yet, and it probably can't grow more than 10x in a year in a healthy way. The users that the Lemmyverse needs right now are the ones who look at a userbase of ~2k active monthly globally and think "That's a good start, I can help grow that community by posting/answering-q's/moderating/etc. A user who needs 30k people making stuff for them to look at isn't going to be happy here yet. Maybe they'll check again next year and see that we really are 20k-active/100k-registered, and that will be the right time for them to join up.
All of which is to say, the monthly active user counts may be lagging a bit in this month of hyper-growth, and it may undercount non-lemmy fediverse participation... but it's pretty close to he right metric to show ACTIVE usage. And it's better to be honest about active usage than try to trick people into joining by inflating user counts with dead/inactive accounts.
Just think about it from the point of view of someone migrating from a site with millions of users. Someone recommends a new place where a lot of people are going so you follow their advice. You go to join this new site, and the first thing you see is that there are maybe 2000 active users. Along with this very low number you're being presented with a whole bunch of abstract ideas and terminology you don't understand. What are you likely to do. For me, a somewhat tech savvy person, I turned around and went back to Reddit. It was too confusing and too nascent to even give it a chance. It feels like too much effort to be a very early adopter of what looks initially like an untested, and frankly empty, new system.
I like the other idea of not showing numbers at all. Just tell people if things are active or not. You don't need to know specific numbers of users when you're joining.
Edit to add: if Lemmy isn't ready to grow more than 10x in the next month, then people should stop directing redditors here. A lot of people are looking for somewhere to go right now.
It feels like too much effort to be a very early adopter of what looks initially like an untested, and frankly empty, new system.
I saw those user counts and thought... "Maybe I can be a very early adopter, test, and add some life to this somewhat empty system in order to make it better for the next person". You're not like... wrong... about it being a lot of effort and a little creaky and a little empty. What the lemmyverse needs right now are people who are ready to fix problems and fill the empty spaces even if not many people are watching them. If someone looks at that information and it looks like too much effort to get into a place where there isn't much to see... they're probably right. It's ok for them to bounce off and check back later.
All of which is to say, lemmy isn't going to satisfy someone who is acclimated to a millions-strong user community. The chants on reddit suggesting "let's all switch to lemmy", aren't realistic today. I don't see the value in trying to hide that fact until after they complete account signup... they're going to find out when they sign in. What could be possible is a cycle where some redditors who are willing to try to build communities from scratch start spending time here and slowly... over time... make it a place that's interesting to more folks. But the idea of an overnight switch is a fantasy. Lemmy isn't reddit and isn't going to become it next week.
if Lemmy isn’t ready to grow more than 10x in the next month, then people should stop directing redditors here. A lot of people are looking for somewhere to go right now.
Yeah, this is probably true. I came from reddit recently, but I came here to do some work to build the place into something interesting. I didn't expect /r/all to be here waiting for me on day one. Take it up with the people making those recommendations though, they're not in this thread.
Are the MAU numbers right? Does it only count people who post or does it also count people lurking? How would it manage that?
Also, 1000 people is not a small number of people. It just looks small when people are bandying about that they conned large fractions of everyone alive into registering on their platform.
There are a lot of good suggestions here! I'm no good at js/ts, but I saw elsewhere that the devs would welcome pull requests: https://github.com/LemmyNet/joinlemmy-site
First, stop posting to lemmy.ml, the admins there are crazy. Don't give them more content.
We redditors have waaaay enough number to populate our own instances without having to rely on the moderation of crazy people. Look at the population of beehaw skyrocketing since the last few days, we are the king makers. lemmy has never seen such an influx of members.
So pick whatever instance you prefer and we plant our tent there, and we path the way for the redditors who will inevitable follow us. Don't feed them the same horrible experience we endured for the last few days of being exposed to the crazy moderation, the crazy putin apologists and such, we need to guide the ex-redditors to our instances, where we completely keep the crazy population away.
Hey, what about joining an EU instance, so when we click "politics" we don't have 90% american stories? Beehaw is already filled with americans. Do you want more american politics, more american gun stories and more woke war, more nba stories? I don't.
I'm on solarpunks now (https://slrpnk.net/), which is hosted in Portugal. Come here guys, we recreate our reddit from scratch with a taste of Europe.
Wow. Barging into the house built by the admins here (they're also the devs who built the software) and saying "This is mine now". Interesting move.
I mean, it's federated for a reason, you do you, but that's quite the disrespect.
Have you seen the way they ban people?
Haven't seen a ban yet that was out of line. I'm going to continue posting and commenting on communities here until/unless I don't like the direction the communities are going.
Set up your own communities, and if it really is that bad you'll have traffic. If not, then not. Don't go barking orders at people.
Haven’t seen a ban yet that was out of line
Maybe you haven't paid a lot of attention?
Set up your own communities, and if it really is that bad you’ll have traffic. If not, then not. Don’t go barking orders at people.
If you want to remain passive then good for you, you do you. But I won't let redditors be mislead by numbers. There are a lot of them asking questions right now and I want them to know that no, it's not just them, something is really odd on this network and we are perfectly able to setup our own communities.
edit:
As I was checking my box after answering you I just got this message. This is the kind of "content" we get on lemmy.ml. This is the tone of the main instance. I leave you with your new friends.
Yes I don’t support Zelensky so what? He is not a leader, he has no background in politics and military. This is a clown who played guitar and piano with his dick. He doesn’t risk anything, just showing off.
I'm new here and I'm not sure how I'd know about bans. I didn't actually know anything about the stuff you've mentioned in this thread!
Aaarrh. It hurts. There are better ways of negociation (should we need that even) than defamation and boycott. I mean, give people some room to grow from experience, will you. This kind of divisive agitation is exactly unnecessary here. (And btw you are posting this kind of gratitude directly in a developer's public forum)
That said, it may be argued if the main devs should in fact also be admins over a lot of large communities or if they should rather concentrate on dev stuff and move the rest of the communities elsewhere, now that there are many more instances available. I have read one dev here (forgot who it was) a couple of days ago, that they do not at all aspire to be in power and that's why they do appreciate that more users get active on other instances. How's that for a start?
Yep this is definitely an issue. I am new here tho interested for a while, but only now joined due to Apollo.
What if those graphs or tables show an estimated average of monthly activity, like "X number of users were active on the 1st day and posted Y publications, same thing on 2nd day, etc.", and show that average? That's better than absolute numbers in a single day, or data that says nothing relevant.
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