Those people were once children who were traumatized by occupation. Maybe they saw their parents die. Maybe they saw their siblings die. Maybe it was their uncle or their best friends. Maybe they were buried under rubble for days and barely survived. Maybe they were shot at. Maybe they saw their homes destroyed.

And then they had to just keep living under occupation. Go through checkpoints, live in cramped conditions, ration their own food, and know that their life expectancy is 40.

Those are the people who attacked Israel. Can you even imagine the pain and terror and hate they must feel? Little traumas and humiliations every day of their lives, only differentiated by spikes of severe trauma when the IDF mows the lawn.

I'd have killed myself. These people are incredible for hanging on despite everything. How dare you judge them?

[–] Arin@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

We create the next villains so we can sell more weapons! long $RTX

[+] lukini@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

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[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Settlers aren't civilians, and IDF veterans and reservists certainly aren't civilians.

Honestly, while I understand where your idealism is coming from I just find it extremely frustrating. You have no alternative, you have no solution, but you sneer down your nose at the actually existing struggle for liberation because it's too ugly and mean for your tastes.

Read history. Every struggle against settler-colonialism has been fought by people condemned as terrorists.

[–] lukini@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'd say kids are civilians and they've been kidnapped or killed. And I never said the IDF soldiers are civilians.

You'll judge me for willfully admitting I don't have a solution, but it's not my job to have one. I'm just some guy in another country. But I'd rather have this view than supporting an evil government oppressing people or an evil government taking kids hostage.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yes, it's terrible when settlers use children as human shields. They should be condemned for bringing children to their settler occupation.

It's not your job to have a solution, it's your job to support the actually existing resistance to colonial occupation and to speak up for them against the relentless propaganda campaign to demonize them as baby beheading rapists. By equally condemning both sides you are implicitly siding with the oppressors.

[+] TWeaK@lemm.ee -10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

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[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You say the strike would not achieve any of their objectives, but I challenge you to name a single alternative that would.

[+] TWeaK@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

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[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm challenging you to give Hamas an alternative. That's it.

To do this, Palestine needs to show that, as a people, they have more moral integrity than Israel.

Did you forget when Palestinians held peaceful marches and Israeli snipers blew their knees out? It didn't matter. It never does.

You sound like Ghandi telling the Jews that they should have resisted the Nazis with nonviolence and peaceful demonstration. Grow up.

And do you actually honestly think that support from America or various European countries has anything at all to do with moral integrity? Vietnam was undone because they killed and brutalized the invading US soldiers until the American appetite for war turned sour. Afghanistan. Iraq. Did American appetites for conquest and war end because Al Qaeda held peaceful marches and hunger strikes?

Should Ukrainians hold peaceful demonstrations and let themselves be sitting targets for Russian bombs?

What Hamas did was show the Israeli public that they aren't safe, and they did so at the same time that the Netanyahu regime was facing unprecedented public opposition from within Israeli society. They did so at a time when the US government had no House Speaker or can easily solve it. They did so at a time when the West was occupied with an endless war in Ukraine and brinkmanship with China over Taiwan.

Hamas has actually seriously damaged the occupation with this attack. Will you acknowledge this?

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fair points, you've got my upvote.

Vietnam was undone because they killed and brutalized the invading US soldiers until the American appetite for war turned sour. Afghanistan. Iraq.

They killed and brutalized US soldiers. The vast majority of victims on 7 October were civilians.

What Hamas did was show the Israeli public that they aren’t safe, and they did so at the same time that the Netanyahu regime was facing unprecedented public opposition from within Israeli society.

This was poignant timing, yes.

They did so at a time when the US government had no House Speaker or can easily solve it.

This was mostly luck, although there some remote possibility of a wider conspiracy.

They did so at a time when the West was occupied with an endless war in Ukraine and brinkmanship with China over Taiwan.

I give 50/50 odds on whether this was coincidence or not. Suffice it to say, the main reason for the timing is almost certainly to do with Netanyahu - who has previously promoted support of Hamas.

Hamas has actually seriously damaged the occupation with this attack. Will you acknowledge this?

I acknowledge that the strike was incredibly effective, moreso than even the people doing it thought it would be. But I feel like the strike was ultimately more in pursuit of indirect political objectives rather than military objectives. In that sense, it has arguably served Israel more than it has served Palestine - Palestine is under seige, likely to lose land, Netanyahu is still in power and while the polls put Netanyahu down they aren't driving meaningful change. It could still swing either way though, we won't know until much later.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They killed and brutalized US soldiers. The vast majority of victims on 7 October were civilians.

Well a lot of them were "civilian" IDF reservists and veterans, but yes, civilian casualties definitely soured liberal support for Palestinian resistance (and gave the IDF ammo for fake atrocity propaganda, like the nonsense about beheading 40 babies and mass rape and shit like that). I don't think it's entirely alienated them from all support, though. I still see a lot of support for Palestine and resistance to Israel's response, especially in the Global South. This feels different than the psychotic response America had to 9/11, y'know?

It could still swing either way though, we won’t know until much later.

It comes down to how things escalate with the imminent ground invasion. What will Hezbollah do? What will Iran do? What will Jordan do? Egypt? The Taliban government? Hell, what will the big dogs like Saudi Arabia do? We don't know, but Hamas is politically savvy.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I would hesitate to give Hamas credit for being politically savvy, more than to say that they have backers that instruct them on how to be politically savvy.

The ground invasion is such bullshit though. I really hate how Israel keep making out that they're "defending themselves", when they're clearly not in a defensive posture. The time for defense was 7 October, when it was conspicuously absent. They're performing a counter-attack, into foreign territory, with only a vague attempt at focusing on military targets.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I wouldn’t give Hamas credit for being politically savvy more than to say that they have backers that instruct them on how to be politically savvy.

Reexamine your prejudices. You might not mean it this way, but this is textbook colonial paternalism - an assumption that the colonized can't possibly be clever or disciplined or intelligent, that they must have puppet masters that helped them win against the superior occupying Israeli forces. Guerilla fighters in every colonial resistance throughout history have been characterized the exact same way. Angola. Nicaragua. It's always the same, it's always some outside puppet master that's behind every success of the resistance because the guerillas are too uncivilized and backwards to ever possibly achieve any kind of wins on their own or to strategize on the bigger picture.

[–] Limitless_screaming@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

If they can steal resources and dig up water pipes to make rockets out of them, then they can organize an attack against some dumb pieces of shit, who moved troops from the border to terrorize people elsewhere.

People should remember that the side which can withstand bombardment, blockades and live off of minimal resources probably has decent leaders, and an angry population.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure, there could be someone in Hamas who is politically savvy in such a manner. That's pretty unlikely though, less likely than outside influence in this case. I've edited my comment a little bit to better reflect that.

If Hamas were truly politcally savvy I think they would be far better at garnering widespread international support.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I think they've been good at gathering international support from Qatar, Iran, Lebanon, and Turkey. With this latest act showing the weakness of Israel and the genocidal brutality of Israel's response, they might just win support from other regional powers as well. If this blows up in a regional war, Israel isn't going to have a lot of local allies because Hamas has cultivated a strong base of support in West Asia.

And it's not like gaining support from Westerners matters. Our governments are 100% behind Israel no matter what, so what's the point?

You're underestimating the political acumen of Hamas. Remember, they did get elected in Gaza. They're politicians and guerillas.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If this blows up in a regional war, Israel isn’t going to have a lot of local allies because Hamas has cultivated a strong base of support in West Asia.

There were lots of supporters on both sides of the war in Syria, also.

And it’s not like gaining support from Westerners matters. Our governments are 100% behind Israel no matter what, so what’s the point?

The point is that 100% support can still be undermined.

Remember, they did get elected in Gaza. They’re politicians and guerillas.

I've yet to learn the full details of the Palestinian electroral system, other than that it is quite complicated.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The point is that 100% support can still be undermined

I'm amazed you still believe that, honestly. As far as I can tell Israel's government support is iron clad and nothing can undermine it.

I’ve yet to learn the full details of the Palestinian electroral system, other than that it is quite complicated.

It definitely is, especially since the P.A. and Hamas can't (won't) form a government together and so elections have been suspended.

My point is Hamas isn't just a gang or something. They are a political organization filled with people who know what they're doing. It's a mistake to assume that they are merely the puppets of other actors like Iran. They have their own ideas, agenda, and understanding.

[–] zerfuffle@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hasn't the strike literally achieved their objectives? Everyone's talking about them (instead of Ukraine), the Arab world is uniting behind them, and the West is progressively alienating their friends in the Global South.

If Israel had just let things lie, the status quo would have continued and Israel could have kept encroaching on the West Bank and slowly suffocating the Gaza Strip with their blockade. Instead, people are literally turning their backs on the US at the UN, there are massive protests around the world, and the Palestinian struggle is now front and center.

The only way Israel can pull a victory out of this complete and categorical defeat is by annexing the Gaza Strip.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee -5 points 1 year ago

Instead, people are literally turning their backs on the US at the UN, there are massive protests around the world, and the Palestinian struggle is now front and center.

This is all just noise, not meaningful change.

I'm not sure that victory is really the goal here. Frankly, I think the goal is merely to make war, and in turn make money by facilitating it. Always has been.

[–] Nacktmull@lemm.ee 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The children who survive this will naturally become the next generation of Hamas militants and who could blame them.

[–] watson387@sopuli.xyz 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, I'm sure they are. It's terrible what's happening.

[–] Shiggles@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Morbidly amusing that the headline makes it sound like day 16 is what finally did em in. Five minutes probably changes your whole outlook on life.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

Or hell, like everything was perfectly fine before.

[–] TwinTusks@outpost.zeuslink.net 9 points 1 year ago

This is heartbreaking

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 3 points 1 year ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:

On Sunday, the Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza said 1,750 children had been killed in the 16 days of bombardment by Israeli forces since Hamas’s murderous onslaught on 7 October.

Children had “started to develop serious trauma symptoms such as convulsions, bed-wetting, fear, aggressive behaviour, nervousness, and not leaving their parents’ sides.”

Since 7 October, they have lived under near constant bombardment, with many packed into temporary shelters in UN-run schools after fleeing their homes with little access to food or clean water.

Studies conducted after earlier conflicts have shown a majority of children in Gaza exhibiting symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

After Operation Cast Lead, the three-week war in 2008-09, a study by the Gaza community mental health programme (GCMHP) found that 75% of children over the age of six were suffering from one or more symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, with almost one in 10 ticking off every criterion.

Children that the aid agency interviewed “spoke of fear, nervousness, anxiety, stress and anger, and listed family problems, violence, death, nightmares, poverty, war and the occupation, including the blockade, as the things they liked least in their lives”.

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