this post was submitted on 01 Oct 2023
481 points (96.9% liked)

World News

38979 readers
2642 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News !news@lemmy.world

Politics !politics@lemmy.world

World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] fruitleatherpostcard@lemm.ee 173 points 1 year ago (32 children)

Show me a MAGA politician, and I’ll show you a person bought and sold by Russian interference.

[–] j4k3@lemmy.world 68 points 1 year ago (4 children)

And I will show you how the second and third world wars started by a dictator doing a land grab and fucktard leaders doing nothing when they had a chance. If Ukraine does not win, WW3 is the inevitable outcome in the next 10 years. These are the people that cause the deaths of millions.

[–] Dagnet@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Most of them won't be around in 10 years, so they don't care

[–] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 8 points 1 year ago

Most of the loudest, craziest, dumbest ones definitely will be.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (31 replies)
[–] shanie@mastodon.tails.ch 136 points 1 year ago (16 children)

Everyone looking at the price tag vs the results knows a proxy war with a well-trained army, the side of the US and Ukraine, against formerly your biggest adversary is the least costly way to cripple your foe while hardly lifting a finger.

~$125 billion TOTAL, including humanitarian, in a sea of $800B+/yr is play money in war, and throwing Russia back with dollars is the largest blow to a man who thinks he’s militarily strong.

It even makes China hesitate. I’d pay a lot more just for that.

[–] JWBananas@startrek.website 61 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

Edit to add: This is a sad justification to be involved in ending human life, regardless of merit.


It's especially peanuts when you consider that the VA won't have to take care of the veterans either. In the long-term, that's where most of the funding actually goes after you put boots on the ground.


Edit to add:

The costs of caring for post-9/11 war vets will reach between $2.2 and $2.5 trillion by 2050 — most of which has not yet been paid.

Source:

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/economic/budget/veterans

That is roughly 1/3 of the total estimated past/future costs of the wars.

[–] pensa@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)
[–] Gramatikal@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not just that. It's about oil & gas too. Ukraine is gar friendlier to the US and the EU. They also has the ability to sever Europe's need for Russian energy.

Every dollar is worth it.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago (3 children)

And it provides your weapons industry with real life data from a large-scale conflict with equipment from multiple origins.

And it advertises a competitors products as inferior, and yours as superior.

I despise all these things, but from a purely economic viewpoint, this is interesting for business.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

proxy war: a war instigated by a major power which does not itself become involved.

Please don't call it a proxy war, because it's not.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (12 children)

I don't think the definition of "proxy war" must include "instigated".

Amusingly, with North Korea providing munitions to Russia and Korea providing munitions to Ukraine, it's now a proxy Korean War, which never ended.

load more comments (11 replies)
[–] bobman@unilem.org 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wouldn't call $125 billion "play money", even if the US yearly military budget is $900 billion.

The US military budget is egregious, and this just shows how much war is about funneling taxpayer money to the MIC.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (11 replies)
[–] Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 135 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Putin's investment in U.S. conservatives pays off once again.

[–] dzire187@feddit.de 71 points 1 year ago (12 children)

How are conservatives not widely declared as traitors? A few decades ago even the slightest hint you might be working for the Russians was enough to derail your career. But now it seems they can openly squash the best chance to disarm Russia, at a ridiculously low price, without sending troops. Why is the bar for them so low with everything?

[–] TwoGems@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago

Trump's four years allowed the USA to be deeply compromised and they'll probably never tell us the extent of how much.

load more comments (11 replies)
[–] Prandom_returns@lemm.ee 62 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I wonder if it would happen with NATO partners as well. If the US elects another (or previous) moron, the partnership could end on a similar whim.

Idk, I feel like the US not a very stable or trustworthy partner. Maybe Macron was right, maybe the EU does need it's own army.

[–] Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works 27 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Honestly strategically, it's stupid not to. But I sit here on my high horse, where we are used to sacrificing an enormous amount of tax dollars on military prowess and have the military wealth of like all nations combined. But hey we go bankrupt if we go to the doctors... so there is that.

I guess my rambling point is it sounds good in theory, but it's a huge sacrifice.

The US would be able to spend more on the military with all the money saved on socialised medicine. Private medicine is about corporations taking a cut, not saving govt money.

[–] jarfil@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Spending doesn't mean quality or even quantity.

Americans get swindled big time by weapon manufacturers colluding with government contract drafters, and pharmaceutical companies colluding with medical insurance appraisers and hospitals to raise fictional treatment costs through the roof. All that, while having a taxation pressure pretty much on par with the average in the EU.

So far, the EU has managed to avoid the medical racketeering, it isn't unthinkable that it could also avoid the weapons racketeering... unless it keeps buying overpriced shit from the US big bully in town, instead of investing in it's own manufacturing.

An EU military, with weapons produced in the EU, would be a huge loss for the US, not necessarily much of a sacrifice for the EU.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

America never was a trustworthy partner. They start wars and raise dictatorships all over the world. Trump just showed they werent trustworthy in economical treaties either.

[–] thechadwick@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

It's not all one thing or the other. People ascribe these kind of blanket generalizations to US foreign policy frequently but it's as short-sighted as painting German foreign policy as imperial. Certain US presidents have started wars. Others the Marshall plan, WTO, IMF, the UN, NATO, etc.

Right now there's a crisis in the US driven by the same fear of change that drove them into containment during the cold war. That isolationist populism certainly benefits some narratives but it's no better than the worst elements of China-first economic coercion in the ACS that's alienated a lot of Philippine fishermen in recent years.

Fact is the biggest threat to the human race is the dissension these isolationists/populists are selling. No meaningful action on climate, migration, or the Russian war of aggression in Ukraine can occur in that worldview and anyone should be suspicious of politicians who promote them.

Most US policy has been quite good when non-isolationists have occupied the white house, just like most non-reich based German leadership has strengthened European unity. The Nazis and Trump's me-first exceptions prove the rule. Education, familiarity, and exposure should be the Rx for the US right now, along with all the countries dealing with the current wave of populist snake oil movements. In the words of a US propaganda film of the same name "don't be a sucker".

[–] Etterra@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

You're not wrong. We have a very short policy lifespan. It's the major downside of term restrictions - nobody wants to or is able to plan for anything more than 2 years ahead reliably. Except the military budget of course, because we live in hell.

[–] profdc9@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

The problem is that politics do not stop at the border. Support for Ukraine has become yet another culture war, us-vs-them battleground. It doesn't really matter what the issues are anymore, only that there has to be conflict over them to keep attention whores in the news cycle.

[–] vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Everybody needs their own army. Otherwise they are too dependent on those who have, and that's not just the USA, that includes also plenty of vermin.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 8 points 1 year ago

Macron was right, but being right is extremely expensive. Meanwhile, the EU's dependence on F-35s for defence isn't too great given the well-known issues with F-35 maintenance and the need for US private contractors in the maintenance loop.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] mawkishdave@lemmy.world 58 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is a small stop gap, and we already know the Mega GOP are against supporting Ukraine. The US has a lot of support going to Ukraine, so this little gap isn't going to hurt them. The training for F-16 is already paid for so they is no stopping that, same with tanks. The good thing is the non-Mega GOPs are starting to distance themselves so hopefully that makes them more willing to compromise with the Democrats so things can get done. You know how the government was set up to work.

[–] pennomi@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A little gap or any delay at all probably will hurt them, at the cost of lives. It might not be statistically significant to the outside observer though.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I mean, if the R's really want to stop sending care packages to Ukraine, maybe it's time to confront Russia directly.

Wooo WW3. 🎉

............I'm getting recalled to active duty, aren't I?

[–] HurlingDurling@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

Does R stand for Republican or Russian?

Answer: Yes

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] negativeyoda@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How's this? If we don't support Ukraine, we also don't support Israel?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Smokeydope@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I am all for supporting Ukraine, its so hard to see Ukrainians shit talk america here equating the opinions of a few loud MAGA conservative assholes to the feelings of america as a whole. Most of our people are with you and want to support you but our political and economic situation is very hard right now. Im ashamed that we aren't doing better during this critical time.

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 6 points 1 year ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


WASHINGTON (AP) — Congressional supporters of Ukraine say they won’t give up after a bill to keep the federal government open excluded President Joe Biden’s request to provide more security assistance to the war-torn nation.

Nearly half of House Republicans voted to strip $300 million from a defense spending bill to train Ukrainian soldiers and purchase weapons.

Both the House and Senate overwhelmingly approved the stopgap measure, with members of both parties abandoning the increased aid for Ukraine in favor of avoiding a costly government shutdown.

The latest actions in Congress signal a gradual shift in the unwavering support that the United States has so far pledged Ukraine in its fight against Russia, and it is one of the clearest examples yet of the Republican Party’s movement toward a more isolationist stance.

In a letter to congressional leaders dated Friday, Michael McCord, under secretary of defense, wrote that the department has exhausted nearly all the available security assistance.

Rep. Mike Rogers, the Republican chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, said he would like to send a clear message to the world about U.S. support for Ukraine by passing legislation, but believes the Pentagon has “enough draw-down money” to last through December.


The original article contains 1,211 words, the summary contains 202 words. Saved 83%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

load more comments
view more: next ›