cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/50439521
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/33851469
"because their lives don't matter as much as CEOs"
This is the defining moment. This is our future
this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2024
1404 points (97.8% liked)
Mildly Infuriating
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My personal tinfoil hat is that they are seeking the death penalty so he accepts a deal. They are scared of jury nullification.
That isn't tinfoil-hat at all. I was reading a news story recently about how worried they are that they'll have trouble finding impartial jurors, since there's so much sympathy for him.
How exactly does this work? How do they determine someone to be impartial? If they weed out people for having sympathy but keep people who don't, aren't they making that jury partial to finding him guilty?
That's the quiet part out loud. They want a jury that will convict him.
The jury is supposed to be unbiased, i.e. not favoring one side or the other. Obviously, it's impossible to get a jury that's completely impartial, especially in a case that's as high-profile as this one, but they have to try.
They ask the jurors questions and then each side has the opportunity to remove ones that they deem problematic.
That's normal though. I mean it shouldn't be, but they always go as hard as they can hoping you'll plead guilty to avoid a trial. When they say the death penalty is meant to dissuade criminals, they know it doesn't work on crimes. It works on getting guilty pleas.
They haven't said they are seeking the death penalty. They have charged him with a crime where they could seek it.
But I agree they're pushing for a deal.
The state of New York is about to get a firsthand lesson in the Streisand Effect. They should have just charged him the same charge any normal killer would get - Second Degree Murder, which is the normal charge for premeditated murder in NY. First degree requires rare special circumstances, and the prosecutor chose to use a dubious "terrorism" modifier to up the charge to Murder 1. They just couldn't help themselves, and they shot themselves in the foot.
The advantage to the prosecution to a simple Murder 2 charge is that motive really doesn't matter much. They just have to prove that Luigi pulled the trigger. But with the terrorism modifier, the trial will no devolve into lengthy discussions about his motives and message. Not only have they now given him the world's largest soapbox, but this will also give the defense an opportunity to make him much more sympathetic to the jury. With only a Murder 2 charge, the defense lawyer would have had to fight hard to sneak subtle hints into trial about Luigi's motives. Now his motives will be a core part of the prosecution's case.
With a simple Murder 2 trial, even jurors who thought Thompson got what he deserved could vote to convict based simply on the letter of the law. Luigi killed an evil man, but he still has to face the consequences like any other criminal. Now the jury will clearly see that the system isn't treating him like any other criminal. The prosecutors, through their own actions, are making Luigi's case for him - the justice system is completely rigged in favor of the rich and powerful, and the only way they can ever be held accountable is through violence.
All it takes is one juror of twelve to look around at the situation and say, "this is bullshit. I'm not going to convict." Sure, they can try him again with a new jury if he's not found unanimously not-guilty, but that jury will have an even greater risk of jury nullification. The longer this goes on, the more likely the prosecutor just has to offer him some sweetheart plea deal just to get him convicted of something. And each trial just elevates Mangione that much closer to literal Sainthood in the popular imagination.
Yeah, first degree requires a deep look into the motives, which is really good for him.
Here's some legal analysis by legal eagle https://youtu.be/vXkH-G_8xew
Except in every step things can develop the ways you haven't thought about.
And courtroom shows are kinda common enough in movies and even in reality. People will have strong feelings, but this doesn't seem a major thing for many.
So - too much copium. I hope you are right and I am wrong, of course.
It's been mentioned before but NYC will be using special jury screening processes to make sure none of the jurors are "terrorist" sympathizers.
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The comparison is definitely stupid because this guy planned the whole thing! Its not like he accidentally started a rebellion in an accidentally treasonous way while trying to steal the office of a high government official. Everyone knows the punishment for that is ...another 4 years of government.
I might be confused by your comment and not understanding it properly so excuse me if I'm just not understanding right.
Are you saying that all the school shooters in America did not actively plan to kill all of those children and/or teenagers?
School shooters took a gun to a school and started open firing on children who were no threat and never even had a chance to grow up and hurt anyone.
This guy planned it out, killing one adult who was responsible for the deaths of a lot of fellow Americans while he got richer and richer from their suffering and deaths.
He was ironicly making a comparison with Trump, convicted of serious crimes but still being elected president
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Because it's about sending a message. They've seen how popular this guy and his actions have become and are trying to throw everything at him so it puts off any copycats.
True, hopefully it will backfire.
Death penalty increases violence because murdering the person catching you becomes a way to increase your likelihood of surviving.
So basically, killing Luigi would not make copycats less likely, but it WOULD make it more likely for copycats to shoot CEOs AND cops?
Hmm.. The killing of Luigi itself would be awful, of course, but the consequences of it sound like a win to me 🤔
No, the death penalty increasing violence is about incentives.
If I shoot someone dead and you are the only witness, I have a choice to make. If I do not want to be executed, killing you is the best chance for escaping punishment.
The more severe the punishment the more desperate one will become to avoid it.
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Except all they have done is make him a martyr, and now anyone who wants to be infamous is more likely to do something.
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Good luck finding a jury to convict him of jaywalking.
Some homicides are self defence.
We're in a pretty nice bubble here on Lemmy and the fediverse. There's a LOT of bootlickers who happily want him convicted
Vigilante justice only feels nice when you agree with the Vigilante. The curse of internet bubbles is that people feel like everyone agrees. Bubbles build extreme values and a lack of understanding of other peoples values.
You become right. Others become bootlickers.
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Imagine thinking there should be consequences for assassins.
Sometimes the consequence for doing a good thing is that people like that you did a good thing, legality be damned.
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They really gonna try to turn this guy into a martyr?
Then we need to make him a saint.
St. Luigi of Baltimore, forgive us our debts, deliver us from the greed of the wicked...
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Adding "Mangione gets a shrine" to my 2025 bingo
Looks like it.
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I do believe it would be a tactical error on their part to give him the death penalty... make a real martyr
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An interesting factoid. In Finnish language "väkivalta" means violence. It is a combination word:
väki = people, crowd, folk
valta = power, reign
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Land of Double Standards.
Pulling an excerpt from George Carlin: "Politicians hide behind three things in this country: The Flag, The Bible and Children. No child left behind! It wasn't long ago you were talking about giving children a headstart. Headstart, Left Behind. Someone's losing fucking ground here."
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US citizens, are you planning to protest?
We have the Russian "and then it got worse" do nothing attitude. We aren't even gonna try to do anything till its far too late.
Protests within US are limited to major cities otherwise logistics are fucked due to suburb lay out of the most of the country.
Also, most of are just too docile, it ain't an issue I til they personally get fucked.
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This is a dumb take. Since 2005 you cannot use capital punishment for minors see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roper_v._Simmons
Most school shooters are under 18, Luigi is 26.
Looking at this, the vast majority of them are adults: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_by_death_toll
The far bigger reason is that most don't survive to be prosecuted.
Shouldn't there be leniency for killing a killer?
Yes I know it's about "sending a message", but messages go both ways.
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