this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2024
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No Stupid Questions

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And I'm being serious. I feel like there might be an argument there, I just don't understand it. Can someone please "steelman" that argument for me?

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[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 49 points 1 day ago (15 children)

Before I start let me note that in the end this particular group of people didn't affect the election. Harris is on the way to losing all swing states. Her failure is much deeper than Gaza policy. Blaming anti-genocide voters for this is just copium.

With that out of the way, you can divide people with this position into two groups: Arab Americans and everyone else. Arab Americans are people who are feeling the genocide firsthand. So, obviously, they tried to appeal to the Harris campaign and get them to move from Biden's position on the topic. The result: They were either ignored or antagonized by Harris. That led to the abandon Harris campaign in Michigan and elsewhere. Harris considered those people acceptable casualties in her failure of a campaign, and so they were burnt out and the momentum behind the Uncommitted movement and others turned from "let's save our Palestinian brothers" to "fuck us and Palestine (because let's face it, that's basically what Harris was saying)? Then fuck you too". Harris thew them under the bus and was thrown under the bus in turn. Maybe not very logical, but a very predictable reaction. Harris treated Arab Americans with just that much contempt, and then she and her enablers had the gall to tell the people attending a funeral every other day to "shut up and vote for her".

Now as for everyone else, it's a more simple instance of taking a stand against a politician for doing something you cannot accept. Now there is a pragmatic idea here that if you allow the DNC to get away with this they'll think supporting genocide actually wins elections, or that their electorate are such pussies that it doesn't matter what they think. Add in the goal of pressuring Harris to drop that policy that was important at the start of the Harris campaign and of course the idea of not wanting to vote for genocide and this was the result.

Of course it's not all 100% logical, but there is logic here beyond "omg bad guy I no vote".

[–] orgrinrt@lemmy.world 26 points 23 hours ago (6 children)

Now that the election is out of the way, maybe I can continue talking about this. I held my tongue during the past months, but I think now is a good time to think about this result.

While the result is unfortunate and disappointing, there are sides to it that aren’t all that bad. They pushed towards the right, pandering, and now the voters told them that this isn’t a winning strategy. I think it helps setting them straight for the future.

I think you put it very aptly. Of course it would’ve been best if Harris had won, but at least now we can think about it from a neutral perspective: Had she won despite all the right-pandering and genocide-enabling stances, it would either send the message that pandering to the right works, and the progressives are, indeed, either too small a group to listen to in the future too, or too much of pussies to listen to in the future, too — they’ll toe the line no matter what kind of shitty positions you take.

At least now they know that a change is needed. It’s almost unthinkable to lose to such a weird fascist populist that barely behaves cohesively. They did, by ignoring the progressives. That means something. At least it ought to.

Things don’t often change unless things hurt. If doing shitty things keeps working, nothing changes. But when things hurt, it opens some eyes at least. Forces re-evaluation on everyone’s part.

But that being said, this fucking sucks. Despite all the reasoning we can do to make it feel a bit better, this really should not have happened.

[–] SimplyTadpole@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 14 hours ago

I'm not hopeful. I've already seen centrists and pundits saying that Harris lost because she's "too progressive" and that Dems need to move further right.

Given Dems' track record, I'm dreading 2028 is going to be JD Vance versus fucking RFK Jr. or Joe Manchin. At least the only silver lining out of THAT shitshow will be seeing the Democratic Party completely implode after completely alienating their voter base to become a carbon copy of the Republican Party (while Repub voters just keep voting R) and hopefully pave ground for an actual progressive party replace them, but that will hardly offset the horrors of 8 years of unrestrained fascism (assuming the left wins in 2032 🥲)

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[–] inv3r510n@lemmy.world 0 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (13 children)

I was born and raised Jewish, going to Hebrew school in addition to English school from preschool to 14. The horrors of the Holocaust and all it’s trauma was shoved down my throat at far too young of an age to be appropriate. Never again means so much to me, one of my deepest held beliefs. Never again isn’t just Jews but any group hunted down for their ethnicity (not to mention all the other undesirables murdered in the Holocaust, such as the disabled and queer).

What’s going on in Gaza is a Holocaust. I can’t live with myself and sleep at night if I vote for trump or Harris, because materially for Gaza they are the same. I voted third party. In 2020 I held my nose and voted for biden. I’m disgusted with myself for doing so. He managed to be worse than I could ever imagine. And the liberals were out to fucking brunch for the past four years.

I will drink liberal tears all damn day long. They can whine and cry and carry on like entitled spoiled rotten children all they want. They were warned that they would lose if they continued to pursue the path they were on and that’s exactly what happened and I have zero remorse for it. And for the record, I’m a visibly queer woman who’s experienced a lot of physical violence in my life for being queer.

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[–] LibertyLizard 86 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Since no one seems to be taking OP's question seriously, I'll take a stab at this. There are a variety of reasons.

Some people feel that voting is offering material support to a specific candidate or system, and they simply cannot bring themselves to do so given the horrors that that person or system is either supporting or failing to condemn.

Others may feel that strategically withholding their vote as a punishment may motivate democrats to take these types of issues more seriously in the future.

Or they may feel that their vote is more impactful in magnifying the voice and power of third parties who offer more meaningful solutions to end the killing, even if they won't win.

Others still may believe that Trump's incompetence will accelerate the end of America imperialism and lead to a better global political situation sometime in the future.

Finally, some people feel that voting won't matter at all and is a distraction from efforts to directly slow or stop the war machine.

I don't personally endorse any of these viewpoints, but some are relatively serious positions and others are not, in my opinion.

[–] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 27 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Others may feel that strategically withholding their vote as a punishment may motivate democrats to take these types of issues more seriously in the future.

They never learn though.

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[–] BruceTwarzen@lemm.ee 6 points 17 hours ago (3 children)

Because they are poorly educated americans maybe

[–] n1ck_n4m3@lemmy.world 3 points 15 hours ago

The result of 40+ years of republicans destroying the education system, who'd ever have guessed

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[–] answersplease77@lemmy.world -4 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

Intresting that we have 20+ different opinions and answers on this post alone, and many are subjectively right.

My answer would be that Kamala is just another pro-genocide lying ghoul who is bought by lobbyists from different sectors who don't represent the left or working class. Trump is at least honest about being a bought pro-genocide ghoul, and that you can look at in the eyes and fight and protest against unlike genocide joe who still until this morning supports Israel with every war crime imagineable while letting Blinken and miller play mental gymnastics in hypocracy in confrences that "they're trying their best" to end the "war" while sending $25+ billions in military weapons to an ethnostate genocidal aparthied.
With that given,

1- It's more exausting and fruitless to fight a murderous war criminal who keeps lying than one is honest about what they want. We just want a clear enemy and be aware of it because we have been fighting a hidden enemy all this time.

2- In short it's the "let it all burn down" logic. You saw that viral clip of Kamala voter shouting at a kid "I don't give a fuck about Gaza bitch!" ?
Emotions and psychology dictate that if I was unrepresented working class, or considered a single-issue voter because of genocide, or an Arab American whose family getting slaughtered by my government and with my tax money, then I wouldn't to want help other issues and would want to see everyone suffers more on all other issues because Kamala would not change anything and probably help improve all other issues other than mine which in my and every fair and just reality is more important than all others.
It's because the alternative is to suffer a slower and longer painful death while no one changing anything anyway.

[–] GrymEdm@lemmy.world 80 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

A lot of people did in fact set aside Gaza until Trump was stopped. As for those that didn't, they should have listened to Bernie Sanders. I did months ago and went all-in on Dem support. There were multiple times when I wrote up an angry post about US support of Israel and then didn't post it because I didn't want to turn a voter into a non-voter or worse a Trump supporter.

I understand their position of never rewarding ethnic cleansing and war crimes though. They chose to make sure the Dems know they would never "settle" for the illegal killing of civilians. The support for Israel made it especially hard for Arab Americans to vote Dem. It's difficult to support a party that has been in power during the whole conflict yet gives unconditional support for the internationally condemned murder of Arabs.

I'm sure a lot also felt disenfranchised by the bipartisan protest suppression and condemnation. Even in Dem states peaceful protesters were punished, and sometimes pro-Israeli protesters who attacked got away with it. Then there was the whole "vote with us or else" pressure that went on for months. Dissenters like the "uncommitted" voters were insulted by the party that wanted their unconditional support.

So it's not like it's completely insane. But as Sanders points out that position only makes things worse and has done so.

[–] babybus@sh.itjust.works 8 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (4 children)

Morals and ethics are subjective and based on emotions. That's why science doesn't say what's good or bad. I don't think you can prove or disprove this argument. People who are strongly focused on Gaza simply reject views that challenge their own.

[–] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee 6 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (5 children)

Personally, I don't see morals as entirely subjective.

I'd say that 'worst possible misery for everyone' is objectively bad and any attempt to move away from that is better.

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[–] yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 33 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Russian bots mostly, but also privileged people who think that a Trump presidency won't affect them

[–] halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world 32 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (6 children)

Don't underestimate the pissed off poor. The Dems kept telling them that things weren't so bad while the Reps said they'd change things.

The changes will of course be worse, but if things are clearly shit, and someone keeps telling you that it's not that bad, you start to despise those people even if they're the better choice.

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