this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2024
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No Stupid Questions

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And I'm being serious. I feel like there might be an argument there, I just don't understand it. Can someone please "steelman" that argument for me?

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[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 4 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Late but here’s my model of the situation. Sort of a WIP and very new but a /gen effortpost, so I welcome thoughts:

It’s individualism versus collectivism. The collectivist understands intimately the function of working together for the protection and future of the group. There is no doubt in her mind about the practical nature of her actions because she can see them play out in her community. The individualist, by contrast, operates solo; everything for him is about your vote, your candidate. This leads to a divide between the individualist and the material outcomes of his actions. This gap—this absence of practicality, we might call it—leaves a vacuum where symbolism can enter. This becomes a problem not when symbolism is simply encountered by the individualist, but when the symbol becomes the act, when the vote becomes a kind of personal expression, and any thought for collective consequences falls by the wayside.

“Ordinarily,” if we imagine such a thing exists, these two identities intermix and act in a complex and altogether non-problematic way; I don’t wish to imply that individualism is simply “bad” while collective action is “good.” For example, concepts of individualism are fundamental to advancing human rights to consent and bodily autonomy.

However, the setting and background of your question is the USA, a country with deep, deep historical ties to white supremacist, capitalist, colonialist, even fascist values, all of which hold the individual as intrinsic over the collective. The result is that hyperindividualism is catastrophically rooted in the heart of U.S. society—even in progressive and leftist spaces!

So, when you see a pro-Palestinian proclaim abstention or that they voted third party, you are witnessing the complex outcome of genuine compassion intermingled with the values instilled by white supremacy and individualism. And so you hear the phrase, “I just can’t in good conscience vote for XYZ.” To degrees varying between people, the vote loses its material value and becomes nothing more than a symbolic moral statement.

This doesn’t mean the leftist non-voter is a white supremacist, of course! Rather, it’s that they have been deeply affected by the presence of those values in their cultural context and have not yet had the opportunity or experience with group frameworks to question their assumptions and reassert the significant importance of collectivism.

So, in conclusion, the unnuanced TLDR is “because America is a racist capitalist hellhole.” The good news I conclude from this, though, is that collectivism can be learned and promoted. Cultural values are definitely not static, and perhaps with education, support, and time, mindsets among leftists can be shifted to better support the whole of the community.

[–] DankDingleberry@lemmy.world 3 points 1 hour ago
[–] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 7 points 3 hours ago

when you are laser focused on a single thing, anything else just slides past you. making life changing decisions with limited information is a uniquely american trait

[–] ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 46 minutes ago)

Steelman:

The US is currently a fascist, imperialist state. It has brutalized the global south, indigenous people, and POCs generally since its founding and will continue to do so unless the status quo is disrupted and changed significantly.

The Democratic party supports the same militaristic policies and the same neoliberal economic system that the Republicans do. The primary difference between the parties are various social issues that may make life somewhat better or worse for US citizens, but will never address the core problems of fascism, imperialism, and capitalism. Both parties support and protect the status quo. This status quo only benefits the bourgeois class and rich white people and harms literally hundreds of millions of others around the world.

The Democratic party is the only one of the two major parties that the Left has any degree of leverage over since the Democrats want the Left to vote for them. So, organizing to essentially boycott the Democratic party is a powerful method of protest that could effect real policy change. It is possibly the only effective method of protest left since the US police & surveilance state is cracking down on protests and the Left has no chance protesting violently against the most powerful military the world has ever seen.

The only way to make that threat matter to the Democratic party is to follow through if the demands aren't met, even - or especially - if it means a second Trump term.

The liberal establishment has ignored and abandoned the working class for decades while dangling the carrot of milktoast social democratic reforms that rarely come to pass, but they blame the same people they abandoned for not energetically voting for them. They say it is a moral imperative to vote for them, but they are incapable of bettering the lives of working class people.

Strawman:

It would hurt my feelings too much to vote for COPmala Harm-us. Plus, Trump would let Putin annex Ukraine. Also, I'd risk touching grass if I went outside to participate in bourgeois electoralism. Gross.

Reality:

You can, and should, do more than one thing. Voting for Kamala is effectively playing defense against outright, full-throated fascism a la Mussolini even if you'd still consider the US fascist - it is clearly worse under Republicans. So vote, play defense, AND organize to raise class consciousness, provide mutual aid, protest when possible, and contribute to socialist causes. Letting Trump win would be a bad move. But, ultimately it is not the Left's fault that he won. He won the popular vole and the electoral college vote by a large margin - larger than all third party socialist/socialist-adjacent candidates' votes combined.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 4 points 3 hours ago
[–] niktemadur@lemmy.world 29 points 9 hours ago (5 children)

Because if it wasn't Gaza, it would have been another excuse to not lift a lazy goddamned finger and still delude themselves into feeling "morally superior"while sitting on their fat mediocre asses at home.

Before Harris, they also leaned heavily on the "Sleepy Joe" bullshit and "two old white men up for election, who cares". Once the old "Sleepy Joe" element was removed from the equation, they had to find a way to keep their goddamned stubbornly lazy and ignorant narrative intact.

Now that the election is over, most of these "concerned and outraged" deadweight assholes will never think about Gaza and the plight of its' people again. And they will keep on feeling smug about themselves.

[–] orcrist@lemm.ee 2 points 1 hour ago

I said the same thing about people like you before the election, and I'll repeat it again. The laser focus on single issue voters was and will always be mostly an excuse to blame someone else.

To look at it another way, if this one issue actually decided the election, why didn't Harris change her strategy two months ago? ... Maybe it's because this wasn't the determining issue. Or it was, and her staff was incompetent. Take your pick.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 2 points 2 hours ago

OP asked for a steelman but good try

[–] gi1242@lemmy.world 17 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I know one of those people. they are now angry the left lost... 🙄

[–] KombatWombat@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago

It is rich to criticize the Democrats for claiming moral superiority while doing nothing, as a justification for not voting for the candidate who would at least try to put a leash on what Israel is doing to Gaza.

If you want what's best for a suffering people, you should vote for the candidate not trying to give their oppressors a blank check. All of America is responsible for what the president we chose does next.

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[–] huquad@lemmy.ml 24 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

It's the trolley problem. You see a trolley about to kill 5 people. You can pull a lever (vote) and make the trolley only kill 1. In this case, that 1 person is also in the lineup of 5. This distinction makes it obvious the only option is to pull the lever (vote).

[–] Draegur@lemm.ee 12 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

They mistakenly believe that by pulling the lever they are complicit in the trolley. That by interacting with the trolley on the trolley's terms, they are consenting to the trolley's actions.

I used to believe that too once... Once.

I was disabused of that notion before 2012, but sadly not enough people were.

[–] huquad@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 hours ago

Inaction is also an action. You're always playing the game, might as well learn the rules.

[–] KombatWombat@lemmy.world 0 points 4 hours ago

This is actually a very good comparison, thank you.

[–] RandomVideos@programming.dev 25 points 12 hours ago (4 children)

The arguments against voting in the USA sound similar to the trolley problem

Some people wouldnt choose to be the reason of the death of one person even if doing nothing causes the death of multiple people

[–] clutchtwopointzero@lemmy.world 5 points 5 hours ago

This is very american - these Gaza supporters protest the suffering of people thousands of miles away and yet think it is okay to bring suffering to everyone in his/her own street

[–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Yeah but also they all die anyway. Nobody is "saved" in this situation. In fact, it's way worse now.

What's going to happen in Gaza is going to be horrifying.

[–] Ultraviolet@lemmy.world 17 points 10 hours ago

That just means you value your own ability to evade blame over the lives of real people.

[–] SlothMama@lemmy.world -1 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Yes, this is how I felt. I would rather not choose to vote for the 'lesser of two evils' and pretend that's good. It's not just Gaza though, it's corporatism, war profiteering, and terrible policy.

I would rather see the system collapse and possibly die in the process than support another shitty government even if it's the less shitty one.

[–] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

That's a horrible outlook, and I'm sorry you've been driven to that point. I understand, as I have been there before.

Now that I'm older, I realize that pulling the lever is the right thing to do as much as it hurts. I don't think letting apathy win and watching the government go full Fash was the correct choice, but I don't blame you, or others who decided the same. The system isn't going to collapse, though, it's just going to get a lot shittier for awhile.

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