I see what the writer is saying for sure but Iβll be honest and say Spider-Man wasnβt the best choice of superhero to try to make this point
this post was submitted on 06 Sep 2024
465 points (86.3% liked)
Comics
5862 readers
14 users here now
This is a community for everything comics related! A place for all comics fans.
Rules:
1- Do not violate lemmy.ml site-wide rules
2- Be civil.
3- If you are going to post NSFW content that doesn't violate the lemmy.ml site-wide rules, please mark it as NSFW and add a content warning (CW). This includes content that shows the killing of people and or animals, gore, content that talks about suicide or shows suicide, content that talks about sexual assault, etc. Please use your best judgement. We want to keep this space safe for all our comic lovers.
4- No Zionism or Hasbara apologia of any kind. We stand with Palestine π΅πΈ . Zionists will be banned on sight.
5- The moderation team reserves the right to remove any post or comments that it deems a necessary for the well-being and safety of the members of this community, and same goes with temporarily or permanently banning any user.
Guidelines:
- If possible, give us your sources.
- If possible, credit creators of each comics in the title or body of your post. If you are the creator, please credit yourself. A simple β- Meβ would suffice.
- In general terms, write in body of your post as much information as possible (dates, creators, editors, links).
- If you found the image on the web, it is encouraged to put the direct link to the image in the βLinkβ field when creating a post, instead of uploading the image to Lemmy. Direct links usually end in .jpg, .png, etc.
- One post by topic.
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
They call him your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man for a reason
He's always depicted as hand-to-mouth poor.
Of all the superheroes, he's probably the most proletariat-affiliated.
On the other side, there are examples like the Pym family, who destroy their stretch limos whenever they're dirty to buy new ones.
Heβs always depicted as hand-to-mouth poor.
And when he started a business and started doing well financially they introduced a second Spider-Man who was broke again.
Yeah, Ironman, Captain Marvel and Black Panther are better options.
Batman
I just want to start this sentence with saying that I know literally nothing about Captain America, but I'm willing to bet that Captain America would be a much better choice. Maybe not the current reincarnation, as most movie studios have realized that not everyone is pro establishment. But maybe Captain America of a few decades ago.
I mean, there was k8nd of a whole event that lead to a massive super powered civil war where Cap lead the charge on the "rebel," side. The movie didn't do it justice, at all, but still had Cap on the anti-government interference side.
load more comments
(2 replies)
Maybe the Captain America from the first comics, but the good stories of Captain America are good precisely because they show Captain America realizing that the "American Dream" he is supposed to represent is really just a dream and does not exist in reality.
Captain America in 1970s briefly abandoned being captain America after preventing the US president from doing a coup as a cult leader
Where's Captain America when you need him
wasn't there a movie a couple years ago where the bad guy was a union member?
Yeah the first Tom Holland Spider-Man has a protagonist that was a union guy who spent his savings trying to keep his business alive but buying the alien tech cleanup contract. The government under Tony starks direction takeover the cleanup and fail to repay the union guy who then turns to theft violence and eventually murder.
Since spiderman was used as an example I'll list the villains for the newer spider man films, you tell me where the films are promoting the status quo:
Homecoming: a group of criminals who stole incredibly advanced weapons and used them to terrorize communities in new york.
Far from home: a guy gets really pissed that some technology that he made for a company was property of the company, starts endangering civilians to make him look like a hero.
No way home: Classic spider man villains from other universes come to this Spiderman's universe, spider man tries to help them improve themselves and there lives
This comic is just a "quit having fun" but with leftist pandering
Homecoming: Blue collar workers are told they're fired and replaced by billionaire Tony Stark's new government backed company, Haliburton. I mean Defence Force or something. System failed them so they said fuck it.
Far From Home: Billionaire's company steals invention of his employee and passes it off as his own. Makes more billions. Dozens of the employees quit to support employee's new plans of taking back his tech and usurping Billionaire's world dominance. System failed them so they said fuck it.
No Way Home: Literally just a movie about how Spiderman and the system failed these "villains" who really just needed support with mental health and navigating a shit system.
Yes and it's also about how all that doesn't justify killing people.
I'll give you the first two, even if neither one was at all constructive or even radical about it. (Neither of them were really trying to change the system, just to abuse it for themselves after being told they couldn't succeed inside of it).
The third one is practically the antithesis of this comic.
If we want to argue the other way:
Homecoming: Tony Stark fucks over a bunch of union workers, leading them into a life of crime to support their families.
Far From Home: Tony Stark fucks over a fellow scientist, dismissing his lifes work as a party trick and tanking his career, the scientist then uses his technology to make himself appear as a hero and save his reputation.
No Way Home: Spider Man condemns four out of five men to die in their home universe, attempting to rehabilitate them and reverse their powers before their eventual deaths.
and if we want to argue the other other way:
Homecoming: tony stark decides to actually help clean up after himself for once instead of making the citizens of new york pay for it (many of whom are homeless after the events of "avengers"). Some union workers start to destroy small businesses and kill people because of that
Far from home: A guy kills people because his invention wasn't respected as much as he would prefer
No way home: spider man destroys his whole life and sacrifices 4 people who he tried to help for the sake of all life in the multiverse
load more comments
(2 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
What superhero movies are you watching?
I feel like this had to have been made by someone who doesn't watch superhero TV shows or movies. I'm watching X-Men right now and it's the complete opposite of this.
X-Men has always been the anti-status quo option...
But now that they're part of Disney, you can expect the next appearance to be more pro-status quo.
The one where a brutal space pig who was committing genocide on an alien race until she found out they had women whose lesson at the end of the movie is to be more emotional as she uses a weapon that allows her to destroy an aircraft carrier at will. The ones where a monarchist ethnostate that tortures outsiders is presented as a utopia. The ones where a rich arms dealer gave the most powerful weapon system on the planet to some kid he liked. The ones where a dumb frat boy causes inter dimensional wars by acting like a dumb frat boy.
I guess the aliens destroying the world are technically changing the status quo
load more comments
(1 replies)
I don't understand people who push this narrative. It's generally just... not true?
It's definitely true sometimes. The tortured revolutionary that took it too far is a very common trope. A lot of the time, it's just very wishy-washy, as you'd expect from a mass produced cash machine like Marvel. When you're making so many stories, they're not all going to be winners, for any number of reasons. The people that think Marvel is making propaganda are just looking for it. The movies just aren't that good, they're not hiding some sinister motive
load more comments
(6 replies)
Rewatching old Batman TAS and am surprised how many times I take the criminal's side. Batman there just reinforcing the capitalist patriarchy. Turns out he's not the hero we need.
I mean He is a billionaire lol
I think that precisely what makes TAS good - and the good Batman stories in general - is how, at least in characters' first appearances, it seems that the idea is to show how social problems have driven these "villains" crazy, and the objective is always, with some exceptions (i.e. Red Claw), to make the audience sympathize with them, producing social awareness of this problems in the audience. Unfortunately, as the characters are reused, they are reduced to caricatured villains and the incentive to sympathize with them fades. For example, Two-Face appears as an antagonist in 6 episodes and only in the stories Two-Face and Second Chance is he depicted as a human being. And this only gets worse in the sequel: The New Batman Adventures.
I actually think it's a good thing that, despite generally showing some sympathy, Batman always opposes his antagonists when they reach a point of social rupture: Batman is not a revolutionary, because Bruce Wayne could never be a revolutionary. Batman not being exactly on the side I would be on is not a problem: it gives the cartoon a verisimilitude.
Now, regarding "the hero we need" and other ideas of the sort, present in Nolan's films and Miller's comics, they are radically fascist, there's nothing to discuss.
Ok, but Batman is there to protect innocents, not solve systemic issues. I donβt care how tragic your back story, when you start freezing people to death, turning them in to plants, or murdering them based on a coin flip, youβre the bad guy.
Also, Batman throws them in Arkham Asylum expecting them to get help. Bring it up with Arkham why they keep reoffending.
I'd buy that if he weren't already also in a position to help solve systemic issues.
load more comments
(1 replies)
OP would enjoy Watchmen
"I grew up poor, my family had to struggle, my uncle beat me and/or died... but instead of getting handouts!, life threw me a curve ball and radiated/bit me into bootstrapping myself! and helping my community or something. I dunno, cops don't show up anymore."
superheroes are "benign" fascists which I'd why they have to be supernatural to exist.
The actual superhero/blockbuster/action/thriller propaganda is that problems are always caused by a few bad apples. But there is no spoiling the bunch. Once the newspaper and honorable elder governmentals get wind of it all is return to the good old status quo.
That is the real problem - that we learned to not question the rules of the system that lead to negative outcomes. That rules and conditions that make negative outcomes all but inevitable.
Of course debating the financing of institutions and bylaws that impact socioeconomic policies would make for an awfully dull superhero movie!
We need to stop pretending this marvel movies are woke. Zemo should not be the good guy.
Comic book zemo no, but this is a different Zemo with a different origin.
load more comments
(1 replies)
load more comments
(4 replies)
One of my favorite tweets goes something like "the morals of a society live in the myths they tell. Superheroes, our demigods, show up to fix the problem then go back to their day jobs"
It used to be true... But I think tastes have changed
The Avengers are cops.
Not really... What hero/story is this?
These movies are all about mass destruction, aliens and fast travel around the planet, universe and interdimensionally. They aren't about protecting unrealized capital gains or a villain that takes control of all abandoned vehicles in junk yards, illegally parks them in cities with his mind and then jeopardizes police time with them writing millions of parking tickets that will NEVER... BE... PAID!!!!
The first Black Panther kinda goes Iike the comic I guess
load more comments
(1 replies)
I can't even remember the last time a superhero was like this.
Batman? Instead of helping with his massive wealth he goes around beating people up who do petty theft.
Well there's that (and an answer to that,) but I meant superheroes enforcing the status quo by beating up people who want a change for the better without addressing their complaints. Like Killmonger comes to mind, but Black Panther did listen.
load more comments
(2 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
view more: next βΊ