People arguing he shouldn't be prosecuted is wild, like we've been so cowed into submission by this dumpster fire of an electoral system that we're afraid to prosecute high treason because otherwise the treasonist might win
this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2023
85 points (100.0% liked)
Socialism
2850 readers
2 users here now
Beehaw's community for socialists, communists, anarchists, and non-authoritarian leftists (this means anti-capitalists) of all stripes. A place for all leftist and labor news and discussion, as long as you're nice about it.
Non-socialists are welcome to come to learn, though it's hard to get to in-depth discussions if the community is constantly fighting over the basics. We ask that non-socialists please be respectful and try not to turn this into a "left vs right" debate forum by asking leading questions or by trying to draw others into a fight.
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Too many people seem to want to "win" at any cost. What they feel they're winning, I couldn't begin to guess. The rich jerks are still going to be rich, the poor ones poor, and you all get to live in a fascist hell hole.
And it's not like that type isn't known for turning on their own team too, so in the end, almost everyone loses. What percentage benefited from any of these authoritarian regimes? If it was ever over 10% is be pretty surprised. It's a pyramid scheme that takes lives.
This is what happens when the population integrates politics into their individual identities.
Our government has just become the largest, most expensive game of football and there are only two teams.
We have/had the same issues here in UK with Boris Johnson and the like.
The fan clubs of these scumbags are so removed from reality, it's painful.
Isn't it funny how anti-liberal reactionaries sound the same on the right and the left?
He's such a piece of shit.
Some say it's his entire brand.
That's why he's so unhappy that they want to restrict what he can say about the lawsuit...
My favorite scenario is a really nice gag order, and he will obviously not be able to contain himself and has to go to prison. One can dream.
Only if he actually ends up behind bars. Otherwise, this will have been a giant waste of taxpayer money and the final nail in rule-of-law's coffin.
Not prosecuting someone is the same net effect as them not being convicted, but with a 100% certain negative result, rather than at least the chance of a conviction. If you don't prosecute out of fear that it will end the rule of law, the rule of law is already dead.
It's good...so long as we follow the advice of that last section: "Prosecute Them All". If it's used instead to distract from the ongoing crimes of other parties and other politicians—such as the fascist currently at the helm—then I couldn't care less, and I think we shouldn't allow ourselves to be distracted by it while there are much more important things to focus on.
The worst of Trump's crimes—the ones that did serious, material harm to working-class people—aren't being touched by this, just as they weren't touched by the farcical impeachments the Democrats facilitated. And that's because they, themselves, are happily engaged in the same crimes, as they have been all along.
Sure, bring out your popcorn or whatever when you're relaxing at home and have nothing better to worry about. But during the day, put all the energy you can into what we MUST do to turn things around: put an end to state warfare, ongoing climate destruction, and the state violence and repression that keeps us from making progress on everything else.
Also:
> And that brings us to the real double standard here. Trying to overturn an American election is the kind of crime the Justice Department takes seriously. Extrajudicially slaughtering scary Muslims in a foreign country, even ones with US citizenship, is not.
Attacks carried out on marginalized communities—carried out just like the Jan 6 Washington DC attack was, but in cities and towns everywhere else on a monthly basis at least—also are not taken seriously. Jan 6 was one of MANY, but only when the halls of power see a tiny inkling of a (pretty pathetic) threat does it matter to politicians and their liberal fans. Not okay.
EDIT: sigh. Blockquotes broken by some Lemmy update.
Can you explain exactly how Biden is a fascist? Regardless of what you think of him I don't see how that applies. The "both sides are the same" argument is getting very tiring, they're both evil, but they're absolutely not the same.
Biden has enacted FAR more fascist policy in his political career than Trump. Fascism embodies reactionary state violence used to consolidate the power of state and capital. From mass incarceration (which Biden is one of the chief architects of)—including literal concentration camps—to torture programs, mass surveillance, militarized policing, the violent repression of liberation movements, militarized borders, and support of fascists all over the place globally (including Saudi Arabia, India, Ukraine, Israel, and many others), to the ongoing American genocide, you've honestly been struck fucking blind by liberal propaganda if you don't see the fascism Biden embodies. Heck, he's been best buddies with outright segregationists for his entire political career, and was more or less of a closeted one himself (not wanting his "children [to] grow up in a [racial] jungle").
I never claimed both sides are the same. It's just that between the two brands of status quo U.S. politics, there's literally only one side. You're in a socialist community, for crying out loud. Time to start figuring that out. The other side is the left; the other side is labor; the other side exists only within social movements in the U.S., because hundreds of years of that fascism (of the kind Hitler explicitly recognized, admired, and modeled his pogroms on) have stripped that side from the electoral landscape.
Ah yes the notable fascists of Ukraine 🙄
Is Putin also a fascist or are you just a full on tankie?
Are you actually denying/apologizing for fascists in Ukraine? Fuckin' yikes.
Sure, there are fascists in Russia too. The difference is that the country I have some influence over as a resident and citizen isn't supporting those fascists. Nor is it supporting fascists in North Korea. But ones in Urkaine? Yep. Ones in Saudi Arabia? Yep. Ones in Israel? Yep. What fascists are your country and its rulers supporting? You should really focus on that, bud.
@ieatpillowtags @StrayCatFrump This has nothing to do with Putin. Pretty cheap whatboutism but go off I guess.
I guess I see that more as an embodiment of the US government for decades, so I don't attribute that to Biden himself being a fascist. I don't think mass incarceration is inherently fascist, although I could be wrong on that. Everything else on that list has been US policy for my entire life. That would be the center of the Venn diagram where both side's evil overlaps, but I don't think it's enough to call Biden himself a fascist in the same way you can actually call Trump a fascist because he himself embodies all of the values. I don't think participating in a fascist system automatically makes you a fascist. Evil to ignore it? Yes, but that's not the same thing.
He’s not just ignoring it though: he’s been advancing and legislating (many of) these awful policies for literally fifty years. You might quibble about where to draw the line between “fascism” and “everyday atrocities”, but the guy has done a lot of harm in his life.
That’s not to say that everything he’s done has been bad. And I’d still rather have him in government than one of today’s fully mask-off GOP fascists: there’s no doubt that this label applies to Trump or DeSantis. But it’s important to recognize that neither party has any interest in ending many of the US’s worst crimes. We’re going to need some major … let’s optimistically say “reform” … for that to happen.
I know there's a lot about his voting record that I disagree with, but I haven't looked close enough to see if he actively supported fascist policies on the regular. If so, I'd agree
On the subject of Biden’s segregationism: this wasn’t closeted. He said that “jungle” bit as part of his enthusiastic and long-lasting opposition to busing to integrate schools, preferring the status quo of segregation. Kamala challenged him on this during one of the 2020 primary debates, and he refused to apologize or back down from that stance.
The list of presidents is essentially a list of criminals. Hopefully Trump will be the start of a trend of prosecuting these ghouls; it's fun to imagine.
Yep. Let's keep pushing for it.
Serious question, would Jan 6 be allowed to happen anywhere else?
I'm glad people, even if only private citizens so far, have been charged and convicted, even if it's just a slap on the wrist. I'm hoping very much that at least some officials are held responsible as well. We can't expect any leader, any public servant, any police officer, or even any citizen to redirect the law if we don't hold people equally accountable.
We also need to announce to the world that we won't tolerate certain behavior. We can't go around acting terrible and get upset when all of a sudden someone decides to partner with Russia or China instead. If we want to be a respected partner with other countries, we have to respect ourselves and hold everyone accountable equally.
> Serious question, would Jan 6 be allowed to happen anywhere else?
Yes, except on a level which actually has some non-laughable chance of succeeding—and which often even does succeed. Often facilitated by the U.S. itself. 2014 in Ukraine, for example, and all over Latin America, and...well, pay attention to West Africa right now, because most if not all of the coups taking place are being carried out by military forces that were trained by the U.S. If you think the clown show of Jan 6 was actually some kind of "threat to democracy" then you REALLY need to start paying attention to what the U.S. has been doing at home in smaller communities, and big-time abroad, for a very, very, very long time.
Kinda weird IMHO to equate military coups orchestrated by the US against local and Soviet interests (in Latin America), with military coups against the US and France and local interests but toward Russia (in the Sahel), with a popular uprising supported but not instigated by the US (Euromaidan).
But regardless, the US is a serial offender here.
Very true, I should have specified places we'd generally consider world powers. If we're doing apples to apples comparisons between the US and Niger or Honduras, the battle would already be lost.