He is right
this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2024
18 points (90.9% liked)
Formula 1
9077 readers
51 users here now
Welcome to Formula1 @ Lemmy.world Lemmy's largest community for Formula 1 and related racing series
Rules
- Be respectful to everyone; drivers, lemmings, redditors etc
- No gambling, crypto or NFTs
- Spoilers are allowed
- Non English articles should include a translation in the comments by deepl.com or similar
- Paywalled articles should include at least a brief summary in the comments, the wording of the article should not be altered
- Social media posts should be posted as screenshots with a link for those who want to view it
- Memes are allowed on Monday only as we all do like a laugh or 2, but don’t want to become formuladank.
Up next
2024 Calendar
| Location | Date |
|---|---|
| 🇺🇸 United States | 21-23 Nov |
| 🇶🇦 Qatar | 29 Nov-01 Dec |
| 🇦🇪 Abu Dhabi | 06-08 Dec |
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
He is, but that doesn't make it the wrong thing to do either.
Strictly IMO based on nothing- I'm not convinced Red Bull or anyone else thinks Yuki has a ceiling much higher than where he's currently at. Red Bull is unfortunately cursed with comparing everyone to Max so they are perpetually hunting for someone as good or better than he is, and Yuki hasn't had those breakout moments to sway their leadership.
The series has seen countless drivers in the same situation with various teams through the years. It's a very cutthroat, money influenced, flavor-of-the-week culture that not a lot of people get the chance to thrive in.
I don't think RB is trying to get someone as good or better than Max, I think RB is trying to get a balance of someone who is good enough to maximise points without challenging Max, while at the same time being good for sponsorship deals and marketing.
It'd be great if RB hired a "Rosberg", but that's not what they're after.
I don't think RB is trying to get someone as good or better than Max
Why wouldn't they be? Every team should be searching for the best available option for every seat, not some lukewarm placeholder to collect the scraps.
Because having two equally fast and strong headed drivers is often counterproductive to a teams goal because they will fight with each other instead to working together for the benefit of the team. See alpines line up now or their previous line up with Alonso and ocon
Because that's totally never happened with Max and Checo? Team orders to swap places that get ignored, second guessing radio calls about strategy compared to your teammate, etc.
Shit happens. Teams know this. Teams just want to win. Even going back to Lewis and Nico, Merc kept Nico until he chose to leave them, even through the conflict.
But speculation and opinions are all part of the fun of F1. We can always count on the teams to do some crazy shit for some random reason.
Because that's totally never happened with Max and Checo? Team orders to swap places that get ignored, second guessing radio calls about strategy compared to your teammate, etc.
Yeah I don't remember any incident where perez refused to swap places with max when he was ahead and the only time max was asked to swap for perez to go ahead was when max was racing with a damaged car. Usually max is around 10-50 seconds ahead of perez so there is no chance of them sabotaging each others races
Even going back to Lewis and Nico, Merc kept Nico until he chose to leave them, even through the conflict.
While this is true, their decision to keep bottas alongside Hamilton in every season after 2017 was substantially influenced by the fact that they did not want to create a toxic atmosphere like what they had with Lewis and Nico by getting a better, more competitive driver.
and the only time max was asked to swap for perez to go ahead was when max was racing with a damaged car
Besides when he drove across the line while GP had a heart attack telling him to let Checo through lol. It is what it is, I'm just saying there is always conflict no matter what.
It's in every team's interest to pursue the fastest drivers, imo.
they did not want to create a toxic atmosphere
Not for whoever was number one, but fuck number two and how they might feel about it. Valtteri was pretty candid about how damaging it was to be in that role, and seemed pretty happy to be away from it when he signed with Alfa Romeo.
Valtteri was pretty candid about how damaging it was to be in that role, and seemed pretty happy to be away from it when he signed with Alfa Romeo.
Yeah ethically having a designated number two is not a good thing. The number two is mentally and emotionally affected in a major way but F1 is a cutthroat sport where the team is only looking for what's best for it
I explained why.
And hiring/keeping Perez is proof they don't want the highest performing available option for both seats. It probably isn't a controversial opinion that Perez isn't one of the best on the grid.
Yeah. Extending Perez's contract while sainz was available is a clear sign that they wanted what was better for the team. Just turned out that perez has become so slow that he is not able to fulfil his role of supporting Verstappen.
I'm not convinced Red Bull or anyone else thinks Yuki has a ceiling much higher than where he's currently at.
Which according to me is perfect for them. They want somebody solid, consistent and fast but not enough to threaten Verstappen. Yuki fits this bill. If they actually wanted somebody who would beat Verstappen in a straight fight occassionally they would have jumped at opportunity to bring in sainz. What they want is a driver what bottas was to merc and I believe yuki could be that
Red Bull is unfortunately cursed with comparing everyone to Max so they are perpetually hunting for someone as good or better than he is
There is nobody fitting this bill in the RB stables (or outside for that matter). Neither did perez fit this bill so then hiring him seems an odd decision. Lawson and hadjar dont fit these requirements either and since they are rookies throwing them into Verstappen infested waters seems more like a plan to destroy their career than advance it.
They want somebody solid, consistent and fast but not enough to threaten Verstappen.
People say this all the time completely ignoring the fact that Red Bull was courting Lando when they thought they had a chance to sign him alongside Max.
Any team that is consciously and actively dumbing down their lineup is making a mistake, imo.
People say this all the time completely ignoring the fact that Red Bull was courting Lando when they thought they had a chance to sign him alongside Max.
Yeah I am aware of this. I think the reason Lando is exempt from this 'should not fight Verstappen requirement' because of 3 factors :-
- He and Max are buddies so I think red Bull thinks that they will be able to manage both them without there being much toxicity(though the same was true for Lewis and Nico and look how that turned out when they started fighting for titles)
- Lando is bloody quick, very close to the level that Verstappen, Lewis and Fernando(at least before this season) operate at so the upside provided by his speed is greater than the downside of potential toxicity and intra team sabotage
- Lando is younger than Verstappen and unlike max has never expressed any desire to move to other racing competitions so I think they see having Lando in the team as insurance for the long term incase max actually leaves.
The above points are why I believe that Lando gets a pass so to say. If they actually wanted to put the best available driver in perez's seat, they would be putting sainz in there but they don't want that as sainz doesn't bring the benefits that Lando brings. They either want a driver who is the best fit for the team or someone who is quick enough that they are willing to work around the negatives of such a line-up.
Edit : just want to say how good I feel to have discussions like these here on lemmy. The community here is pretty small as compared to reddit so I was missing these long but respectful discussions like these. Cheers @FrostyTrichs@walledgarden.xyz
The above points are why I believe that Lando gets a pass so to say.
I would argue he's the only one who's been a legitimate talent comparison to Max that Red Bull had even a sniff of a chance to sign. George is a great talent but his fate has been in Mercedes hands for years, who were quick to shove him next to Lewis knowing full well there would be conflicts when neither wanted to be number two.
The talent coming up from the feeder series has been locked down too besides Oscar (lol) but by and large has been lukewarm as well until recently.
I see/understand your points, but I'm not convinced that's what is actually happening. There's so many variables though who's to say what the truth is until everyone retires and tells the stories.
For the people that say Checo is valuable to Red Bull for Mexican beverage sales, I imagine Yuki has a similar appeal.
Checo also helps with Merch sales across LatAm and India( force India days fans).
I don't think Yuki can bring the kind of volume of merch, beverages sales and sponsorships that Checo does.
India( force India days fans)
I think you are grossly overestimating the amount of fans checo has in India.
Yes yuki will bring no where near the sales that checo brings but red Bull will have to weigh that alongside the possible damage to brand value that comes with not finishing first
red Bull will have to weigh that alongside the possible damage to brand value that comes with not finishing first
I have no doubt that Max will win the WDC this season, that will enough marketing for Red Bull sales. Most people don't seem to care about the WCC.
Constructors matter more to the engine manufacturer(s) in this case Honda, which is also the biggest supporter of keeping Tsunoda on the grid. Red Bull is not continuing with Honda's PU from 2026, why would they carry a Honda sponsored driver when there are better options available.
In my opinion it depends on Horner who has won the power struggle and is now the defacto decision maker(with the Thai's support) of everything Red Bull does.
Does Horner want to give the Zak(most likely at the moment) or even Toto the satisfaction of taking away the constructors(reputation and money that comes with it) from his team.
Let's see what Horner decides during or after the summer break.
Red Bull is not continuing with Honda's PU from 2026, why would they carry a Honda sponsored driver when there are better options available.
They wouldn't but 2026 is a year and a half away. Tsunoda is the perfect no risk stop gap until that time. He is clearly not seen as a long term option by red bull so they can keep him in the car while Lawson, hadjar and possibly linblad gain F1 experience. If yuki performs at a high enough level, Red Bull can think about retaining him or else they can let him go and promote one of their youngsters who will have the benefit of having 1.5 years of experience. Yuki too would be open to this because he can move on to honda powered aston in 2026. This option has no downsides for red bull atleast in a sporting context.
He is clearly not seen as a long term option by red bull so they can keep him in the car while Lawson, hadjar and possibly linblad gain F1 experience.
Don't know about Hadjar, but Lawson has some rumored (could be manufactured by his camp to pressure Red Bull) interest from other teams, he can be an option for Alpine or Williams. He desperately wants a drive.
Red Bull can think about retaining him or else they can let him go and promote one of their youngsters who will have the benefit of having 1.5 years of experience.
Lawson did perform better than Tsunoda last year, although very small sample size. Give 1.5 years to Lawson and see what they have in him. Keep Tsunoda at VCARB so the obligation to Honda is fulfilled.
Yuki too would be open to this because he can move on to honda powered aston in 2026.
Not while Lawrence is calling the shot at Aston Martin, don't know what kind of pull Honda will have on the team. Enough to get a seat for Tsunoda, highly unlikely.
Lawson did perform better than Tsunoda last year, although very small sample size. Give 1.5 years to Lawson and see what they have in him. Keep Tsunoda at VCARB so the obligation to Honda is fulfilled
How are you claiming that Lawson performed better than yuki. Yuki out qualified him in all but one event(where he was blocked by max in the 1st run). In the races, yuki was a victim of poor luck (Monza DNS), bad strategy(Zandavoort) and people fucking crashing into him(Singapore). The 2 races (Japan and Qatar) which are actually comparable, yuki had, by a very slim margin, the better average finishing position. Lawson was pretty close (in the races at least) but claiming he was faster is just a lie.
Even if Lawson has a higher ceiling than tsunoda, throwing him to the Max infested waters of Red Bull with no preparation seems like the wrong move to me.
Even if Lawson has a higher ceiling than tsunoda, throwing him to the Max infested waters of Red Bull with no preparation seems like the wrong move to me.
When did that stop Red Bull before. Currently they just need a rear gunner who will be able to fight other drivers and bring points to help them with the WCC. Either its Yuki or Lawson no one is challenging Max. They will have their mirrors or visor providing a good view McLaren,Ferrari and Merc.