this post was submitted on 12 Jul 2024

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cafe in Amsterdam could not produce a receipt -- a “digital transformation” scenario; are receipts no longer obligatory? (eviltoast.org)

submitted 3 months ago by toasterOven@eviltoast.org to c/thenetherlands@feddit.nl

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Apparently merchants are no longer required to give customers a paper receipt. A cafe with a no-cash sign also had no menus. Normally I would move along but they had something unique that I wanted to try.

They had wifi without a captive portal, so I was able to get online. But the menu would not render in my browser (“Privacy Browser”). No idea what the malfunction was but I just got a black screen when visiting the menu. So the staff had a phone they let me use (which is important because who’s to say that all customers even carry a smartphone).

I was able to place an order. I’m not sure how they normally work out which order goes to what table because there was no step of identifying my table in the UI. Perhaps they guess based on timing of my entrance. After placing an order, I tapped a pay afterwards option. And I was able to pay at the register. But the register had no printer. No way of producing receipts.

me: I would like a receipt please
staff: that will be in gmail¹
me: what email? I was never asked for an email address.

Staff discusses among themselves how to add an email address to an order that came from one of their phones. Turns out to be impossible (at least as far as they knew).

¹ yes they really said “gmail” not email, which made me realise /their/ address is gmail, and thus the receipt would be transmitted with Google in the loop.

So even if they could work out a way to associate my email address to the order, the receipt would come from Google. Of course the first problem is assuming customers even have an email account and willingness to share it. The assumption that breaks down in my case is the assumption that I am okay with Google tracking my offline commerce.

GAFAM is investing fortunes in buying offline sales data and I oppose willfully feeding these tech giants. I will not give an email address to a gmail user.

I was denied a receipt because of a competency issue, but had competency not been an issue I would have still been denied a receipt because of my ethical stance. Is this really legal?² What if it had been a business meal subject to a tax deduction? The taxman wants receipts.

After I left, it later occurred to me to ask for a hand-written receipt on a napkin or whatever they can come up with. I will ask for that next time.

² My question of legality is strictly in terms of denying customers a printed receipt. I’m sure it’s illegal from a GDPR standpoint (data minimisation -- my email address is not necessary for performance of the contract).

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[–] Ghoelian@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 3 months ago (1 children)

As far as I know, a customer receipt is not and has never been required. What is required is a pin receipt, but you get this when paying with a card.

[–] toasterOven@eviltoast.org 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (3 children)

As far as I know, a customer receipt is not and has never been required.

Then the interesting question is: Do tax auditors accept that if you claim a deduction for a cost where a receipt was not rendered?

What is required is a pin receipt, but you get this when paying with a card.

I find it a bit alienating that Dutch speakers often seem to refer to card payment generically as “PIN payments”. Maybe I’m missing something because PIN typically expands to personal identification number which is an authentication mechanism used for larger amounts of money. In my case it was a small enough transaction to just tap the card and use RFID to identify the card and skip authentication. But indeed I was surprised they accepted a card payment but had no printer to produce a receipt. I wonder what would have happened if my card were the older style which has no EMV and requires a hand-written signature. I probably would have been unable to pay.

BTW, strangely I see your reply in my notifications timeline but not in the thread when I visit the thread. So I’m not sure if you’ll get this reply.

(edit) I can see my own reply to you in the thread, but still not your msg in the thread (unlike the other comment from someone else that I can see fine). Seems like a strange federation issue between our nodes.

[–] Visstix@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

We use pinnen as a verb. Probably started while bringing it to the public with commercials. And not even being able to give a receipt sounds like it is a very badly organised restaurant , if I am honest. A store has to be able to give receipts according to the law.

[–] venite@mastodon.nl 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

@toasterOven Signing instead of using PIN has always been a niche in the Netherlands. We basically went from cheques (which most millennials will never have used) straight to PIN cards. The “card payment available” logo is blue with the word PIN on it. All payments including the little ones used to be PIN secured until “contactless” became a thing.

[–] Ghoelian@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 3 months ago

They used to be blue with PIN on it, but that hasn't been a thing for quite a while I think.

The reason for that was that in NL, PIN was actually the brand name of the technology used for payments back then. But this has been replaced by Maestro and V-pay, who now process their payments through currence I think.

[–] Ghoelian@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Oh that's weird, I can see your replies just fine.

Then the interesting question is: Do tax auditors accept that if you claim a deduction for a cost where a receipt was not rendered?

I believe a bank transaction can also function as a receipt in that regard, but I'm not super sure about that.

And yeah, PIN in the Netherlands is actually a different thing. As I said in another reply, it's the branded name of the technology used (or something like that). It's been replaced nowadays, but that PIN logo and pinnen as a verb used to be absolutely everywhere.

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I believe a bank transaction can also function as a receipt in that regard, but I'm not super sure about that.

For filing business expenses yes, for getting BTW/VAT back no. But my accountant says not to do the first either, because it's super annoying when you get an audit.

[–] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit hassles. Doesn't make a lot of sense for a store whose business model is in-person physical food production and consumption to move all of their physical business to online only. It's also just really sad that people assume all parts of life are inside the cellphone.

[–] Dragomus@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

These things are small experimentation gardens, big corporations are looking at these setups with interest:

It reduces overhead costs on their end, no printer costs, no paper costs, less personnel-hours needed since the customer does all the work by sorting out their own menu, adding their own email adress, and inserting their order in the system.

It might lead to the next step in ordering fast food (on site), customers ordering on their own phone (email login required) and using qr codes to transfer them to the local restaurant's ordering kiosk...

Ofcourse the savings will only be on the corporate side and the actual food will just keep getting more expensive for the customers.

Now for the receipt thing, I don't know the exact rules, but a written receipt must be provided if the customer asks for one. A "pin" receipt, ie. validation of payment is not a legal item to be used for tax deduction because it does not list what you bought nor the amount of tax, not sure if both percentage and the amount must be present.

It sounds a bit like you went inside a place that was a startup by some "students" with bright new ideas that were not fully thought out yet. They easily go for the bottom line in costs saving by dropping staff costs as much as they can, probably corrects itself over some time.

[–] toasterOven@eviltoast.org 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

These things are small experimentation gardens,

Indeed that was my thought as well. The problem is we don’t have enough consumers experimenting with privacy and/or an analog life. If just a few percent of the population would insist on cash payment, refuse to feed the tech giants, and resist designed obsolescence by using old smartphones (AOS 4-), and run only FOSS, then there could be some headway into ensuring these digital experiments that kill off lifestyle freedom of choice while leaving some people in the dust would rightfully fail. It would be interesting if a consumer union would recruit right-to-be-analog proponents to target merchants among these experimental digital dystopias.

A “pin” receipt, ie. validation of payment is not a legal item to be used for tax deduction because it does not list what you bought nor the amount of tax, not sure if both percentage and the amount must be present.

In the parts of the world I’ve been, an itemised receipt and card receipt are both given or they are combined into one. In my travels through Netherlands I often only receive one form of receipt or the other and sometimes I have to request it.

ATMs are mandated by international treaties to print receipts, yet I’ve noticed some that are perpetually out of paper.

The cashless direction is forcing a “paper trail” on us whether we want it or not, but then at the same time the receipt problems seem to deny us the benefits of the paper trail (to be able to claim tax deductions and make warranty claims). For ultimate control I generally want to pay in cash (for data control) and receive an itemised receipt (for tax/warranty claims) which should be on paper (for more data control).

[–] freedomPusher@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

There is a new law that allows merchants to stop giving paper receipts.

The forced use of e-receipts in Europe (France, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, England, & Italy)

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Dutch law doesn't require companies to give you (the consumer) a receipt at all: https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/zakelijk/btw/administratie_bijhouden/facturen_maken/wie_zijn_verplicht_te_factureren

And if that means you (the business) can't get the VAT back on your business expense, it's up to you (the human) to decide whether you still want to go there.

These companies have obviously decided this benefits them more than it costs them.

[–] Pringles@lemm.ee 4 points 3 months ago

I hate the fact that some places don't have physical menus at all anymore. At least have it as a backup, ffs