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What is your opinion on sex work? (lemmy.ml)
submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by Amicchan@lemmy.ml to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml
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My opinion is that sex work should be legal. It would enable involuntary virgins to get a good sex experience for payment; they will be guaranteed a good sex experience with a sex worker: no harassment, good education, and a fun time.

Sex work gets shamed by ~~people~~ puritans because of payment for sex and it's "sinful"; yet these same ~~persons~~ puritans get and have sex for free out of "passion" or marriage; they also discriminate against minorities in sec.

EDIT: Apparently there is an implied difference between sex work and prostitution. I mean sex work.

EDIT 2: I messed up the writing of my post. My real opinion is located in this comment:

Oof. I didn't realize there was way more exploitation than just sex traffickers. It totally makes sense though; sex trades are a product of capitalist exploitation and the existence of private property. (Naturally under communism, the prevalence of sex trades would be heavily reduced.)

It seems like I couldn't communicate my ideas properly beforehand. I don't want people in the sex trade to be criminalized; I want pimps and johns to be criminalized.

Only a few hours ago: I wanted to support a sex trade industry that didn't involve rapes or rely on economic coercion. I just wanted disabled people, who keep getting discriminated out of sex,^[Sexual Ableism]^[Dating With Disability: How to Rise Above Sexual Ableism]^[Dating with Disability: Choose Your Dreams Over Sexual Ableism] to be able to feel better about their lives; a lack of sex can cause mental health issues in some people (even though this shouldn't happen). (However, having sex probably won't fix the issue, it will just hide the problems until later). Now I feel like shit...

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[-] pH3ra@lemmy.ml 25 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Countries where sex work is legal and regulated (Holland, Germany, Canada, Australia...) all registered sensible drops in human traffic, venereal disease spreading and rapes. People sell their bodies for food or money since the dawn of time and always will, like it or not. Keeping it illegal only favors criminal organizations and fodders a culture in which people are not allowed to do what they want with their own body, whether it is selling it, changing it or whatever. Edit: added links to studies made by people smarter than me.

[-] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

A long time ago someone shared a study with me that claimed that legalization of sex work leads to increase in trafficking. Sadly my reddit account is gone so I can't find it anymore.

edit: thank you google scholar

Study: The challenges of fighting sex trafficking in the legalized prostitution market of the Netherlands

The main conclusion is that the screening of brothel owners and the monitoring of the compliance of licensing conditions do not create levels of transparency that enable sex trafficking to be exposed. The prostitution business retains many characteristics of an illegitimate market and the legalization and regulation of the prostitution sector has not driven out organized crime. On the contrary, fighting sex trafficking using the criminal justice system may even be harder in the legalized prostitution sector.

Study: Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?

This paper has investigated the impact of legalized prostitution on inflows of human trafficking. According to economic theory, there are two effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market and thus an increase in human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked prostitutes by favoring prostitutes who have legal residence in a country. Our quantitative empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger degree of reported human trafficking inflows.

Plus the source you linked for human trafficking is not a primary source. A lot of sources it links are actually for decriminalization which drastically different from legalization. A bunch of other links like the NYT article are behind paywalls so I couldn't read them.

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[-] j_ming@lemmy.ml 17 points 2 years ago

fucked up that arguments being made here is for the buyer rather than the worker/slave.

[-] Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

elaborate?

[-] southerntofu@lemmy.ml 15 points 2 years ago

I think the rest of the thread has good arguments on the topic, but the main idea is that regulations around sex work mostly impact sex workers and not the client. Even the criminalization of clients results in bad outcomes for the workers, so if you'd like to frame prostitution as a question of workers rights and public health, it's important to center the debate around the experiences and problems of sex workers themselves.

To paraphrase someone else, as long as money exist there will be sex work. The question is what kind of labor conditions do we want for the sex workers?

[-] pH3ra@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Of course regulation comes to both ends: only allowing prostitution to be legal leads to situations like in Thailand or Madagascar, where child prostitution is rampant. In European countries for example, brothels (I use this term for lack of an official one) have strict costumer rules about behaviour, health and hygene.

if you’d like to frame prostitution as a question of workers rights and public health, it’s important to center the debate around the experiences and problems of sex workers themselves

totally agree: in fact when I say "health" I include psichological support.

[-] leslieriver@fapsi.be 14 points 2 years ago

Prostitution is rape.

[-] MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago

"But this woman who wouldn't be able to afford rent or food if it weren't for the money I give her said she loves having sex with me! She couldn't possibly be lying to protect herself and boost my ego!"

[-] Amicchan@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I was thinking of consensual sex work (sex work that is not done by neccessity, but by people who want to do sex work); but I agree with you that sex trafficking is rape.

[-] leslieriver@fapsi.be 14 points 2 years ago

There is nothing consensual about having to sell your body to make a living

[-] pH3ra@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 years ago

People sell their bodies everyday to make excel spreadsheets for 10 hours straight under fluorescent lights in a cubicle that's smaller than my bathroom or work in factories where they risk their safety because of old machineries, chemicals and hazardous environments in general. How all of this is considered better than having sex with someone in a controlled environment, where people get checked for deseases before going in, where security guards can keep you safe against violent clients and where you get to pay taxes and work for a pension?

[-] leslieriver@fapsi.be 8 points 2 years ago

Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority, or against a person who is incapable of giving valid consent.

You have no problem understanding the lack of agency of the worker in their workplace. you just don't want to call it rape because it makes you uncomfortable.

[-] pH3ra@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

You know, I used to work for this big company that exploited me like a slave (making excel spreadsheets for 10 hours straight under fluorescent lights in a cubicle that’s smaller than my bathroom, as a matter of fact). I called that job "rape" everyday for three years and when I quit I had no problem telling that straight to my employer's face. I'm doing the exact same job self-employed now, do I still call it "rape"? Of course not, because now I'm in control of how I do it and there's no more exploitation.. And I think it should be the same for sex workers, but as long as there's no legalization and regulation it cannot happen.

[-] leslieriver@fapsi.be 10 points 2 years ago

You can call your job whatever you want. But unlike prostitution it's not literal rape. What makes your job exploitative is not the working conditions or the size of the company, it's the necessity to sell your labor to get your means of subsistence. You had no choice but to keep working because you would starve and freeze to death if you didn't. That's why I quoted the literal definition of rape. Prostitution is literally rape.

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[-] Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

that still applies, nothing about any of this work is consensual, because they cannot change anything about their situation, even though it is horrible, and must keep doing it in order to live. You are right about it being legal under capitalism though.

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[-] agertudici@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

90% of the incels I hear from are raging misogynists who vehemently hate women for their ability to withhold a "resource" for money. Combine that with the low social status of sex work (which is not fixable with legislation) and you are just offering these women up to be murdered (which is already the case).

There are a few things legalization of sex work does fix.

  • once it's much easier to access legal adult prostitutes, child prostitutes become significantly less desirable to those that might otherwise seek them out.
  • you can try to weight things in the prostitute's favor by enacting rules that make brothels and pimping a lot harder (although you still need to have a good way for them to hire their own security).
  • It's easier for prostitutes to seek justice from abusive johns if their side of things is perfectly legal.
[-] Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

weird though, you'd think incels would like prostitutes, they aren't going to get any sex otherwise

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[-] Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

under capitalism, legalization and government protection combined with a workers co-op is probably the best they can do

[-] lordofbud@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago

It's no less moral than selling your labor in other ways, hell, it's less harmful to the self than some other forms of labor.

Capitalism makes all labor morally grey to say the least, most of us work because we have to, engaged in jobs and environments we'd prefer not to be in.

My take is, for labor to be moral(I'm not taliking about personal morality, but systemic) our essentials need to be well covered regardless of our work, and the people need systemic assistance moving from one field to another, so that what ever labor one is engaged in doesn't feel like their only choice of participation.

I don't know where sex work fits into my utopia, but I do know I'd prefer, I'm general, that people are only engaged in what they want to engage in.

[-] Oatsteak@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

If you have to pay someone to have sex with you, they don't actually want to have sex with you. If you're still willing to take advantage, you're a rapist. Simple as that.

[-] OnishiMyers@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

If you have to pay someone to have sex with you, they don’t actually want to have sex with you. If you’re still willing to take advantage, you’re a rapist. Simple as that.

How is that different than say... if you have to pay someone to tar your roof, they don't want to tar your roof, If you are willing to take advantage you are a slaver?

Now don't get me wrong, sex work has much worse track record of abuse than manual labor, though I would also say it's quite probable that is because of it's underground nature... criminalized things attract criminals, same way that illegal marijuana results in drug dealing groups that commit horrible crimes and shootings defending their territories etc...

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[-] Ghast@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago

My opinion is that sex work should be legal.

Yay.

It would enable involuntary virgins to get a good sex experience for payment;

Oh dear...

[-] Echedenyan@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

Locking this thread as result of the situation here from some users.

[-] yxzi@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

No one should get control over someone else's body without true consent. Taking money as a bribe does not equal consent. Getting laid should take some effort. Putting money on the table doesn't count as effort.

The thing is that mind and body can't be divided, at least in the long run. Abuse to someone's body is abuse to someone's mind. There is always the risk that people abuse their "right" they "earned" with their dirty money.

It's not the same as rape, but sex without sympathy is mentally unhealthy.

However, paying money to just talk to someone is more acceptable, albeit not necessary in an ideal world.

[-] ree@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

Your logic can be extended to all type of work. Destroying your health in a mine for a salary has similar conesequence. And for that reason sex work is just work and should be treated and legislated as such.

Btw, I don't see why getting laid should requiere effort, seems like an unnecessary value judgment.

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[-] OhScee@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

A roofer destroys his body every day he works in order to get money, or to receive a "bribe" as you put it. Does the fact that he needs money to live make this situation less consensual?

Do you imagine that he loves roofing, and that the fact he's getting paid for it makes him abuse this right that he's "earned?"

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[-] tracyspcy@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago

A product of capitalism

[-] Ghast@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago

So other systems didn't have sex work? Feaudalism, theocracy, autocracy, none of them had sex work? This developed only once competitive businesses in the Victorian era began trading?

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[-] Amicchan@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

Wait, is there a difference between sex work and prostitution?

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this post was submitted on 12 May 2022
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