this post was submitted on 18 May 2024
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Because it's not his only path to victory, and it's not even certain that it IS a path to victory. A majority of DEMOCRATS, much less the general public, still approve of the current level of support to Israel or support INCREASED support to Israel.
Do I want Biden to pull out of Israel? Yes. Do I understand why the strategic political reasons why it's not being done, other than Biden being an old dinosaur? Also yes. Do I think that welcoming Trump into the White House will improve the matter? Fuck no.
Those voters who approve of funding Israel's genocide should really suck it up and vote for Biden even if he slashes funding. After all they aren't crazy "tankies" who would dare withhold their vote because they don't approve of what he's doing.
Absolutely they should. And absolutely I bitch out anyone who thinks that Biden 'not being pro-Israel enough' is a reason not to vote for him as a fascist enabler, at minimum.
No, they tend to be fascists and theocrats instead who will gleefully withhold their vote, just as tankies do.
This is what democracy looks like. Fighting to keep a coalition of unlike people together because the alternative is getting something that's worse on every fucking level.
I take it you'd have a problem with people calling the Democratic party fascist but you seem to think such a significant part of their base is fascist that they have to implement fascist policy to appease them. What is that if not fascism? If the DNC actually has morals they'd amputate that part of their base and appeal to new voters because they look less ghoulish. If the Democrats lose it isn't going to be because a few online leftist withheld their vote, it's going to be because they failed to get any fresh voter turnout. A third of Americans don't vote, and a larger portion of that third is young and PoC, more likely to be strongly against the genocide.
A significant part of the American electorate supports fascist policies, specifically, with regards to Israel. We can debate the causes all day long, but the fact remains.
Democracy. As it is necessarily compromise with the will of the majority.
If the DNC had morals, they'd lose, huh? Yeah, Trump rounding up people into concentration camps AND funding Israeli genocide looks much better. /s
So, your plan is that, if the Dems take one of the least important issues to voters (yes, including young voters), radically change it to alienate their most reliable demographics to appeal to their least reliable demographics, that is the real path to victory?
How do you ever expect to get new voters if you only pay attention to what your base wants? And why do you think most of the Democrats who support Israel are bloodthirsty fascists who will switch their vote to Trump if Biden changes course on the matter? These political parties have had major shifts in the past and it can happen again. That's why I think one of the most important things we can do is shift people's ideology through protest and conversation. If America is so conservative we will never get anywhere by just showing up to vote and doing nothing else.
You are emphasizing the need to win the election as if it is a political goal that takes precedence over everything else. But under that view we shouldn't even politically engage with people who are already planning to vote blue because we might make them change their minds. It's important to instill voters and non voters alike with more progressive values, even if it threatens to make them vote in a way we don't want. I don't even believe the DNC believes in winning elections over all else, if something would win them votes but upset their benefactors in another way for example it might be off the table. The DNC doesn't believe in things like harm reduction, they are playing a completely different strategy game than voters are. Trust me, they are not funding Israel because they believe it is what they must do in order to stop concentration camps.
Man, liberals are the Democratic base.
I don't. I simply think they're of a demographic that votes more often, and thus, there is a strategic consideration which is not unreasonable to mull over, that a change in Biden's position will not necessarily be a net gain in voters.
Man, I absolutely agree with that. I say time and time again that the positions of absolutism so many progressives want to take are only going to be viable with a LOT of fucking groundwork.
30 years ago, supporting gay marriage was a death sentence for a national political career. But if progressives got together in the 90s and said "We aren't going to support anyone EXCEPT candidates who support gay marriage", LGBT rights would not be as firmly placed as they are today.
You can't win every battle immediately, and that's what I'm arguing against. If you don't win the battle to change US policy on Palestine before the election, the alternative is not, should not, and must not be "Well, it's okay if Trump wins, then", because that will do everything BUT move us in the right direction.
Considering the consequences of this election, it absolutely is. Have you not been following the whole MAGA movement and the GOP these past few years? We had to fend off an autocoup in 2021, and its only gotten worse. This election is a political goal that takes precedence over everything else, unless you're fine with never have a say again in a fascist-controlled regime.
The DNC isn't planning on destroying the last pieces of democracy in America, though, so regardless of their reasons for funding Israel, they're the superior choice to the RNC, which is in favor of funding Israel and dismantling US democracy.
Then there are enough that you don’t need us.
You guys spend so much of your time trying to convince peaceful people to support genocidal actions instead of supporting the warhawks changing to peace.
You are choosing to spend your time supporting genocidal actions instead of supporting rejecting them.
You tankies, specifically? Yes.
We do, however, need to minimize the cheap talking points you parrot, like Republicans chanting "RAISE THE TERROR ALERT" in 2004 like it fucking meant something, in order to avoid low-information voters being swayed into voting in favor of fascism like you lot want.
Yes, I’m the one who is being a tankie, what with my advocating for not using military force to secure what i want.
You are fucking hilarious
I didn't realize I was advocating using military force to secure votes for Biden. TIL!
I never said that.
Tankies like to use military force to support their actions.
So calling someone who is doing their level best to stop using military force to enforce others wants, is patently false and shows that you don’t actually know what a tankie is.
What's your opinion of October 7?
That is was a horrible, unjustifiable massacre in which children and non military personnel were kidnapped and killed.
I appreciate your consistent stance on that, at least.
Thise fascists and theocrats were mever going to vote for Biden anyway, so why do you want him to court their vote instead of progressives?
They literally are voting for him. They voted for him last time. A significant subset of the Democratic party is strongly pro-Israel.
I don't. I told you, I tell the fascists and theocrats and those leaning that way I absolutely condemn.
Then they deserve what they get!
If the majority would rather side with supporting genocidal actions, rather than peace, than America deserves to burn
Tell me you're white and know you're not gonna be the one who actually burns without telling me you're white and know you're not gonna be the one who actually burns.
You're saying that you are ok with Israel slaughtering Palestinians so long as you can continue your standard of living. "Never Again" doesn't have a secret clause saying we shouldn't stop genocide if it means people may be harmed in the process.
You don't want Trump to take over the US and institute his fascist policies? You should be leaning on the Democrats to actually try and stop him, rather than going after those who are trying to actually stop fascism as it pops up.
"We think any amount of genocide is unacceptable, that's why we think it is imperative to threaten the democrats with the possibility of letting more genocide happen here too if they don't stop supporting genocide, and shut up it's not supporting genocide when we do it because we're right!"
The Israeli government has said they want to remove every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank. There is literally no more genocide that is able to happen right now
Thanks for going mask off.
Yeah mask off.
To all the people supporting genocidal actions, we do no give a fuck what you think.
When you decide that you are not ok with sending more bombs to continue killing children then we can talk.
Until then I hope you all experience exactly what you want other people to.
So when members of Hamas, the current representative government of Gaza, talk about the genocide of the Jews, you say...?
Me, personally, I say that wishing democide on a population is fucking horrendous regardless of what that population supports, but I understand you tankies adore bloodshed more than I do.
I have said before and I will say again, they decided to launch attacks into civilian occupied areas without consideration.
The Israelis could have built a secure area with the help of the us military. Y’know the best of the best of logistics.
They could have built a base covered in camera and with food, water, power, and medical care.
It would have shown the whole world that they were actually only after Hamas.
Shit I was on Israel’s side in the beginning of this.
There is absolutely no justification for what hummus did, they killed and kidnapped innocent children.
They could have returned them for free at the first opportunity, instead they used them as bargains chips.
Instead neither side cares about the civilians as anything more than pawns.
So fuck them both, it’s really hard for me to care when the first sf or hummus has their people killed.
They are both pieces of shit who only care about land and power.
Also, you still don’t know what tankie means
Then by your own logic, you should be wishing on them the same thing you wished on America - for their countries to burn.
I literally defined it earlier in the thread.
I have very clearly said multiple times in the past that hummus are a bunch of tunnel rats whose extinction won’t bother me in the slightest, same for the IDF, maybe one day we will be able to respect Israel again, but they have managed to turn my default view of Israelis from neutral to negative.
Does that justify calling for Israel to burn?
Me, personally, I am a supporter of military force in select circumstances. I would love it if there was the political will to impose a no-fly zone over Gaza, IDF casualties be damned.
But I still wouldn't call for Israel to burn, no, not even knowing that Gazan genocide is still widely popular in the country. Not just as a matter of ignorant and indirect support, as in the US, but as a matter of direct and intimately understood support.
Likewise, calling for America to burn because a majority of the people here understand international politics about as well as they understand domestic politics (ie not at all) is fucking unconsciable, and what I called you out for in the beginning.
Never Again applies to everyone, I get so sick of saying that
Except if the majority has bad opinions on policy, huh?
I don’t support killing anyone, I don’t support military action, and almost every problem we have in the Middle East right now can be directly assigned as a consequence of us action.
I think we just need to walk away from the Middle East altogether.
At one time Israel might have been deserving of our help, but they have repeatedly tried to drag more countries into this to try to force us military action.
That said if one of said bad policies is killing people, then yeah I don’t care what happens to them.
Same as I don’t care what happens to hummus or most of the IDF.
Everyone is living by the sword
I mean, I'm in support of near-total abandonment of Israel, so I don't think we disagree there.
If we burn because of our decisions we deserve it.
It sucks for the people like me who don’t want to support genocide, but if the majority votes it in, we can’t say that it wasn’t legitimate
Okay, but that's not what you said. You didn't say "If America decides to nuke itself, it deserves it." You said that America deserves to burn if it continues supporting Israel's genocide, even lukewarmly.
That's you.
We deserve what we get is my usual and ultimate response.
I use burn in the context of if we burn you burn with us.
So yes I fully believe we deserve whatever we get, and that if comes time for us to burn, we take others with us.
And yet you keep trying to call the person advocating against military force as one.
No, you're 'just' saying that the murder of millions of Americans is okay because most have opinions on foreign policy that aren't aligned with your's. Much better!
~~Also, in this comment thread, I haven't called you a tankie.~~ Apparently I did when you called for America to burn for the sin of wrongthink.