Alright, let's roll with that logic: A sovereign government that violates the sovereignty of it's citizens is illegitimate. Since Ukraine is now violating the sovereignty of it's citizens for wartime mobilization, it is an illegitimate government. That's a sound premise, actually. In a vacuum this would be true.

However, that completely loses the nuance that Ukraine is not the aggressor in this "senseless war". Ukraine did not violate it's citizen's sovereignty, RUSSIA DID by initiating the war of annexation against the sovereign government of Ukraine. By violating the sovereignty of the government, Russia thus violated the sovereignty of every citizen under that government. None of this would have been necessary had the initial aggression not been committed.
So, now extend your argument: Let's go ahead and accuse Ukraine of violating human rights with this expansion of power. You must also do so for Russia, who backed Ukraine into this corner in the first place, and who is also committing infinitely worse violations against the civilian territory they have thus far annexed. Are you willing to do that? Because so far, you haven't.

You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole, and not the independent nation being overrun by a expansionist dictatorship that it is. This argument is not in good faith.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 10 points 6 months ago (2 children)

However, that completely loses the nuance that Ukraine is not the aggressor in this “senseless war”.

Weird, last I checked Ukraine was involved in a war against Donbas since 2014 as even western media reported at the time.

Ukraine did not violate it’s citizen’s sovereignty, RUSSIA DID by initiating the war of annexation against the sovereign government of Ukraine.

And if people of Ukraine wanted to defend the state then they would be voluntarily fighting to do so.

By violating the sovereignty of the government, Russia thus violated the sovereignty of every citizen under that government. None of this would have been necessary had the initial aggression not been committed.

None of that has anything to do with the western sponsored regime in Ukraine forcing people to fight Russia for western interests.

So, now extend your argument: Let’s go ahead and accuse Ukraine of violating human rights with this expansion of power. You must also do so for Russia, who backed Ukraine into this corner in the first place, and who is also committing infinitely worse violations against the civilian territory they have thus far annexed. Are you willing to do that? Because so far, you haven’t.

The premise the west peddles is that Ukraine is defending western values against Russia which is already presumed to be bad. However, if it turns out that Ukraine is doing the same things you claim are bad when Russia is doing, then what values is Ukraine defending exactly?

Turns out this conflict isn't about values it all, it's about whose sphere of influence Ukraine is going to be under.

You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole, and not the independent nation being overrun by a expansionist dictatorship that it is. This argument is not in good faith.

Meanwhile, you're making an incoherent argument that doesn't make a lick of sense trying to defend literal fascism in Ukraine.

[+] xionzui@sh.itjust.works -7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Weird, last I checked Ukraine was involved in a war against Donbas since 2014 as even western media reported at the time.

It’s almost like Russia has expressed its desire to annex Ukraine for over a decade now and has been sending disguised military units to create a “resistance” to fabricate a justification for “liberating” parts of Ukraine into Russian territory. Weird… It’s not like they explicitly gave that as one of the 20 conflicting reasons for this invasion or anything

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

a lot of things are weird when you just make them up

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole

BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
The Guardian, 2017: 'I want to bring up a warrior': Ukraine's far-right children's camp – video
WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
Consortium News, 2022: Evidence of US-Backed Coup in Kiev

Edit to add: Usually someone responds with, yeah well Russia has fascists, too, to which I usually respond:

There are Russian fascists. Take Navalny, for example, who the US tried to use in its regime change efforts so that it could resume its neoliberal shock therapy plundering that started under Yeltsin and ended under Putin.

2007: Video: Alexei Navalny Compares Muslims to Cockroaches

BBC, 2021: Amnesty [International] strips Alexei Navalny of 'prisoner of conscience' status

Workers World, 2024: Who was Alexei Navalny? A violent white supremacist and fascist on U.S. payroll

[+] Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com -9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Quoting Internationalist 360° as a reliable source isn't going to win anyone over. And the 'The Hill' article you listed concludes something that is the opposite of what you are claiming:

The odious Russian media tried to paint Ukraine as a land of Nazis, though that is patently wrong. Ukraine has a thriving Jewish community, and its far-right is still on the fringe.

We all understand your point of view, everyone's a Nazi if they are against Russian/Chinese imperialism.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 12 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

We all understand your point of view, everyone’s a Nazi if they are against Russian/Chinese imperialism.

I don’t think that at all. Being “against” Russia or China doesn’t per-se make someone a fascist. I’m not confused about what fascism is, and I don’t use it as a floating signifier for stuff I don’t like.

But neither Russia nor China is imperialist. The imperial core is imperialist, otherwise known as the Global North.

.
Over 20 years go Russia—at the time lead by Putin—wanted to join the imperialism club, but the US rejected them: Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule. Now Russia, rejected by the Global North, has no choice but to join with the Global South as allies instead. This shift in allegiances has been massively accelerated by the sanctions of this war.

Ukraine has a thriving Jewish community

So fascism means hating Jews? What about the fascists genociding Palestinians in Israel as we speak?