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Free Markets (lemmy.ml)

submitted 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) by yogthos@lemmy.ml to c/socialism@lemmy.ml

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 9 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Given that 70% of people were against dissolution of USSR, that's pretty obviously the case. Meanwhile, China is very obviously a centrally planned system, and US government moans about it incessantly. The fact that China allows private corporations doesn't mean it's not centrally planned as anybody with a functioning brain would understand. China literally puts out 5 years plans for its economy.

Here's how your market based economy is doing against Chinese central planning:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/us-eu-economic-system-struggling-to-survive-against-china-us-trade-chief-warns/

Are you saying every government whose ever tried tons of central planning just messed up or randomly decided to scale it back just for funsies?

No, I'm saying that's just bullshit you made up that has no basis in facts. In fact, not only does central planning work well at government level, but it doesn't even work at company level as was clearly demonstrated when Walmart outcompeted Sears using central planning https://www.versobooks.com/en-ca/products/636-the-people-s-republic-of-walmart

Maybe spend a bit of time educating yourself on the subject instead of making a clown of yourself here.

[–] Midnight 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

China has some more central planning than the US, but they lean on the same market mechanisms that the US does when it comes to most solutions, ie tax penalties/incentives and subsidies. An excellent example is their smog reduction plans.

Its also great you linked an article about Chinese steel because they do the same stuff there

There isn't a party planner in every steel mill determining output, they let individual companies react to market forces they shape with tax structures and subsidy.

People's republic of Walmart

Good thing Walmart wasn't supplanted by Amazon who delegates most of whats sold to 3rd party sellers. They certainly havn't copied that for their online sales, right?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

All the core industry in China is state owned, and it accounts for roughly half the economy. Meanwhile, using markets within a centrally planned system is not in any way contradictory with central planning.

There isn’t a party planner in every steel mill determining output, they let individual companies react to market forces they shape with tax structures and subsidy.

You have an incredibly naive understanding of how central planning works. The party makes a general plan and guides the development of industry to fit that plan. Central planning doesn't mean you have a single person sitting there and directing every single aspect of the economy.

Good thing Walmart wasn’t supplanted by Amazon who delegates most of whats sold to 3rd party sellers. They certainly havn’t copied that for their online sales, right?

You think Amazon isn't centrally planned? 😂

Also, actual capitalists understand that virtues of markets and competition is just a bullshit story they sell to the rubes https://archive.is/z43lo

[–] Midnight 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I mean if central planning can be redefined to mean decentralized capitalist markets, I've got a book gor you to read too.

My dude, did you even read the Peter Theil article you linked? His entire speil is in no way congruent with your point. He's basically just saying the rent seeking from a gaining a monopoly can make high risk investments worth it. His argument is still grounded in market logic. He leaves out the people who started high risk companies they thought would be monopolies but turned out to be undesireable.

And I don't even agree with his point, neither Google nor Amazon needed massive capital to hit the market, they needed massive amounts of capital to operate at a loss to squash their early competition to create a monopoly; something that can only be done by the horrible market distortions of a governmnet or rampant late-stage capitalist billionaires with equivalent piles of money.

Edit: I would also point out Theil is a believer in autocracy, known widely for literally owning a company whose product is disinformation, and is shilling to prevent the breakup of his monopolies. I wouldn't trust him under any circumstances.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago

Nobody is redefining central planning as a decentralized capitalist system. You're just utterly clueless regarding how the system in China actually works and you keep making a clown of yourself here.

My dude, did you even read the Peter Theil article you linked? His entire speil is in no way congruent with your point. He’s basically just saying the rent seeking from a gaining a monopoly can make high risk investments worth it. His argument is still grounded in market logic.

Thiel clearly rejects the idea that markets are efficient, and he explains that capitalists actually want to have centrally planned monopolies.

He leaves out the people who started high risk companies they thought would be monopolies but turned out to be undesireable.

😂

And I don’t even agree with his point, neither Google nor Amazon needed massive capital to hit the market, they needed massive amounts of capital to operate at a loss to squash their early competition to create a monopoly; something that can only be done by the horrible market distortions of a governmnet or rampant late-stage capitalist billionaires with equivalent piles of money.

Welcome to how "free markets" work in the real world.

Edit: I would also point out Theil is a believer in autocracy, known widely for literally owning a company whose product is disinformation, and is shilling to prevent the breakup of his monopolies. I wouldn’t trust him under any circumstances.

I would also point out that anybody who thinks that other oligarchs think differently from Thiel is naive beyond belief.