this post was submitted on 19 Mar 2024
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[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 96 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (9 children)

I'm just perplexed how kids are still religious in 2024 with vast amount of free information out there. I thought this cult bullshit was about to end with my generation when we got free, unrestricted information exchange invented.

I guess you can't fix irrationality with rationality huh

[–] FractalsInfinite@sh.itjust.works 39 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

From my perspective its because people won't change their beliefs unless they stop benefiting the believer. For people who live in a religious community, there church's sunday social event is enjoyable, there friends are all religious, there denomination provides a entire moral framework and worldview they don't even need to think about. Confirmation bias plays a major role in preventing alternate thought to block out other worldviews.

Only when someone does not gain much benefit from there religion or has a important part of there religion proven wrong, can they process alternative ideologies and either switch to a more useful denomination or stop believing entirely.

[–] Resonosity@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Yep I have a friend who joined a church after not going to one for years because of the social aspects of it. Lots of people their age to relate to.

We just need better secular groups to join with those benefits that aren't tied to religion. It's one of the reasons I'm always apprehensive about volunteering because I don't want the connection to religion. I know it doesn't matter my intent for those who benefit/what benefits from the volunteering, but it affects my long term commitment to the cause.

[–] FractalsInfinite@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago

Its a shame as well because many of the old social places such as rotary club and the masonic lodges have died out, and the new "third places" are online and/or expensive to access (vrchat comes to mind). Its no wonder so many people use social media these days.

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

But being closer to more "true" metaphysics and rationality is benefiting, though I guess that's probably not obviously apparent to everyone.

[–] prole@sh.itjust.works 9 points 7 months ago (3 children)

But being closer to more “true” metaphysics and rationality is benefiting,

What does this even mean. What are "true" metaphysics? Please tell me you're not just going to spew pseudoscientific nonsense at me.

[–] owen@lemmy.ca 11 points 7 months ago

My man popped some DMT then hopped on Lemmy

[–] FractalsInfinite@sh.itjust.works 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

The funny thing is that those words somehow have actual meaning. Metaphysics is the philosophy of existance. I believe the "true" metaphysics he refers to is the fact that it is unknowable if anything other then you exists, because there is no guarantee you are not a bozmian brain or living in a simulation along other things.

This ability combined with rationality can allow you to adapt to changes in your perception of reality, while other frameworks can't (for example there are still people who don't believe in evolution because there interpretation of god is dependent on god creating all species at the start)

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

I put it in quotes because truth in this context is likely not binary. Here, "true" as in something that can be researched and argumented for rather than something that requires pure faith.

[–] FractalsInfinite@sh.itjust.works 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Agreed, though for most believing in irrational things is "fine" (in that it doesn't harm them) until someone shows up to take advantage of it (I'm guessing at least one person is using ai to make it look like they can perform holy miracles on Facebook).

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

But isn't that harm them? maybe indirectly but restricting your world view will restrict your agency. i.e. people will take advantage of you.

[–] FractalsInfinite@sh.itjust.works 2 points 7 months ago

Exactly, its fine until it isn't. Unfortunately most people don't seem to realize just because there beliefs work in the present doesn't mean they will continue to be beneficial in the future (e.g. a christian being recruited to work for free at the pastors business because "it is gods will")

[–] Kalysta@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago (1 children)

A lot of them need to be actively exposed to other views and opinions to break free. So usually when they go to college.

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

but internet does all that too. Especially more immersive social media like Youtube or podcasts. I'm generally very optimistic but the progress of our information network as someone who lived through it turned out much weaker than we thought it'd be. Maybe that human exposure of college is much more powerful thant basically infinite knowledge at your fingertips.

[–] Empricorn@feddit.nl 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

That's taking it too far, in my opinion. I realize it's supremely unpopular to be a person of faith nowadays, especially online, but you can't say that anyone with faith is stupid and it's all bullshit as a blanket statement. You don't know what happens after we die, and neither do I. I can't prove that God definitely exists and I'll probably never convince you of it, but by the same token, you can't prove that God doesn't exist.

Where we diverge is I think it's okay that you believe that. And yes, of course you can point out the shitty people that use religion to persecute and restrict others' rights, to punish, and worse. Many people do this, but they are still the vocal minority we hear about. And it's not like there haven't been terrible atheists/agnostics who have done awful things not motivated by religion...

Me, personally, I also won't attend any church that tries to be political or tell its members how to vote. I am a Christian, but I try to model my religious activity on the Sikhs: quiet, respectful, loving outreach to improve the world. So I can acknowledge the problems, but no, I don't think all religion is bad nor every person of faith stupid...

Edit: spelling

[–] flerp@lemm.ee 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

They didn't say stupid, you did. They said irrational, which it is. You're right no one can prove that there is no afterlife, but believing in something that there is no evidence for is the definition of irrational. That doesn't mean I'm saying you're stupid, I'm just saying that it's irrational. No need to get offended, that's just what words mean.

[–] Simon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 7 months ago

And remember that it's not an insult. Even a lot of science depends on taking an irrational position to discover things. Doing irrational things in life can sometimes be way more rewarding than doing rational things.

Trying to explain to someone that their take is not evidence-based though... most jump to the conclusion that you're saying they're wrong.

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

It's not the belief that makes you "stupid" is the irrationality of the whole package. If you're looking for metaphysics answers - we got them. People tried to figure out this stuff since the beginning of time with rationality and logic and even experiments rather than blind faith to words they never even heard personally. That's the difference.

I don't discriminate against the religious but it's really easy to argue that reglious approach is taking the easy approach to metaphysics and it's something important to consider here.

[–] Lemming6969@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Most people are not actually people, they are people-like imposter automatons and they are dumb as hell and can be manipulated like clay.

[–] Zink@programming.dev 4 points 7 months ago

Inoculating believers against rational counter-arguments is a powerful tool. Do it right, and the vast amount of information at their fingertips might seem like the whole secular world is conspiring against them.

[–] TK420@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

By bro still believes because they get you so early. I basically tell him he’s an idiot for being a christian, also fucking his kids up, but jesus says it’s cool. So that is how it happens.

[–] FilterItOut@thelemmy.club 8 points 7 months ago

My friend got sucked into it because of a girl. His parents weren't religious. I don't think he had gone to church more than twice in his life by high school, and he, just like the rest of us, trash talked our school's requirements to have a 'chapel' hour once a week. He was as blasé as they come about religion, perhaps an agnostic in the christian hemisphere at best, but when he started dating a christian girl, he went to church with her, made friends with her friends at church, etc. Now 15 years later he's indoctrinating his kids with her, and a deacon at his church. The power of social influence is enormous. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to break free, or even just consider information that is contradictory, if you have the combination of early influence and the later social influence from family, friends, and the wider social circle that is part and parcel of a church.

[–] Adi2121@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 months ago

I'm a Zoomer, and one of my best friends is very religious precisely because of the internet. He reads the Bible online a lot, and is in a bunch of Christian Discord servers, and often reads up theology. To be fair, he is very progressive on pretty much all issues except birth control, he isn't a blind authority-obeyer, and is totally fine with me being agnostic.

[–] prole@sh.itjust.works 0 points 7 months ago