THE POLICE PROBLEM
The police problem is that police are policed by the police. Cops are accountable only to other cops, which is no accountability at all.
99.9999% of police brutality, corruption, and misconduct is never investigated, never punished, never makes the news, so it's not on this page.
When cops are caught breaking the law, they're investigated by other cops. Details are kept quiet, the officers' names are withheld from public knowledge, and what info is eventually released is only what police choose to release — often nothing at all.
When police are fired — which is all too rare — they leave with 'law enforcement experience' and can easily find work in another police department nearby. It's called "Wandering Cops."
When police testify under oath, they lie so frequently that cops themselves have a joking term for it: "testilying." Yet it's almost unheard of for police to be punished or prosecuted for perjury.
Cops can and do get away with lawlessness, because cops protect other cops. If they don't, they aren't cops for long.
The legal doctrine of "qualified immunity" renders police officers invulnerable to lawsuits for almost anything they do. In practice, getting past 'qualified immunity' is so unlikely, it makes headlines when it happens.
All this is a path to a police state.
In a free society, police must always be under serious and skeptical public oversight, with non-cops and non-cronies in charge, issuing genuine punishment when warranted.
Police who break the law must be prosecuted like anyone else, promptly fired if guilty, and barred from ever working in law-enforcement again.
That's the solution.
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Our definition of ‘cops’ is broad, and includes prison guards, probation officers, shitty DAs and judges, etc — anyone who has the authority to fuck over people’s lives, with minimal or no oversight.
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RULES
① Real-life decorum is expected. Please don't say things only a child or a jackass would say in person.
② If you're here to support the police, you're trolling. Please exercise your right to remain silent.
③ Saying ~~cops~~ ANYONE should be killed lowers the IQ in any conversation. They're about killing people; we're not.
④ Please don't dox or post calls for harassment, vigilantism, tar & feather attacks, etc.
Please also abide by the instance rules.
It you've been banned but don't know why, check the moderator's log. If you feel you didn't deserve it, hey, I'm new at this and maybe you're right. Send a cordial PM, for a second chance.
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ALLIES
• r/ACAB
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INFO
• A demonstrator's guide to understanding riot munitions
• Cops aren't supposed to be smart
• Killings by law enforcement in Canada
• Killings by law enforcement in the United Kingdom
• Killings by law enforcement in the United States
• Know your rights: Filming the police
• Three words. 70 cases. The tragic history of 'I can’t breathe' (as of 2020)
• Police aren't primarily about helping you or solving crimes.
• Police lie under oath, a lot
• Police spin: An object lesson in Copspeak
• Police unions and arbitrators keep abusive cops on the street
• Shielded from Justice: Police Brutality and Accountability in the United States
• When the police knock on your door
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ORGANIZATIONS
• NAACP
• National Police Accountability Project
• Vera: Ending Mass Incarceration
view the rest of the comments
I don't know man, I'm all for police oversight, but this isn't a great example. This dude is running around a neighbourhood with a gun. Who says he doesn't go into one of those houses and some innocent person gets hurt.
The cop yelled at him to drop the gun and stop running, he didn't.
The part of them trying to cover it up after is shitty, but the action itself I can't really take the criminal's side. Again, image that's my neighbour with my kids playing in the area, I don't want some lunatic running around with a gun.
I realise what sub I'm in, and this isn't a popular opinion and that's fine. We need police reform, but this isn't a good example.
When people jump on everything with the same fervor it weakens your case because people start tuning you out.
"Somebody could potentially have been in danger later" doesn't justify murder.
Additionally, someone is innocent until proven guilty and that's not the cops job. The cop shot someone not guilty and now people are speculating about the crimes that person could have done to justify it
Actually, the Fleeing Felon rule explicitly does allow for deadly force in this case.
I dunno. Brandishing is a misdemeanor in CA and it doesn't sound like there was any probable cause to believe that the guy posed a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others.
Seems like shooting someone in the back as they run away while discarding their weapon is questionable at best.
Running away from a traffic stop?
Really?
What's next? Jaywalking?
You guys don't understand he just kept crossing the street!
This is an interesting ethical dilemma which I don't know if there's a clear cut answer. It's a variation of the trolley problem (sort of). I think it depends a lot on the risk assessment being made. I don't know the details of this particular case, but I can think of plenty of examples where a potential future danger should be limited by direct action. I'm happy to provide examples if you're interested in exploring this thought further. I don't know that I have a simple yes/no answer to this dilemma (also why I never became a cop).
Of course it doesn't because that "somebody" isn't someone you know. If that "someone" is your family, what do you suggest he do?
I’m all for devils advocate and hearing all sides and all but…
If there’s a scent of shit everywhere you go, at some point you might want to check your shoes.
I don't think a person is actually interested in hearing both sides if this is mysteriously omitted from their discussion.
In America, you are legally allowed to have a gun.
There's no real reason to think this guy was a criminal.
Yes, you can have a gun, but holding it opening in front of an officer is asking for trouble.
That's fascism.
Typical worthless right wing response, you're the problem
No literally. Legally you can have a gun. Legally, you cannot be brandishing it in public. He's right LMAO
Did you watch the video? He's dropping the guns. He drops one in the driveway right in front of the camera. Then he's in the process of dropping the second when the police officer shoots him.
You cannot give people the right to bear arms and then shoot them for complying with police orders.
Ah, you got me there, I was looking away when the dude dropped the first.
Complying with orders, is that what the guy was doing when he was running?
The stated orders were "drop the gun."
Lol don't get facetious with me. You and I both know you don't run from the cops, regardless of your feelings about them. If you're detained, for instance, by a cop with a gun, then you're not free to go. You know this, you're just being an asshole.
Ah yes. Now citizens have to follow the unwritten rules and unsaid commands as well. Law abiding citizens are psychic, and famously calm under pressure.
You must've forgotten when I said you're being facetious. Bad faith, goodbye :)
Lmao. I'm not sure I could engage in good faith with someone who defends cops shooting people that are running away.
Guns are the problem. Take away the guns in this situation neither party is going to die.
I get that American cops have a very bad rep but I can't imagine having to work each day wondering if today is the day you're going to get killed on the job. It's no wonder they get trigger happy. Kill or be killed etc.
Agreed! Take the guns away from the regular cops! Thanks, we agree.
I would understand that reasoning but cops aren't even in the top 10 deadliest professions in the US.
"Coleman was implicated in court testimony in 2022 for participating in the Vallejo police badge bending scandal, where officers bent the tips of their badges to mark fatal shootings. Coleman testified his badge was bent against his will, but a department superior testified that he was more involved than he said and may have even helped spread the practice to other officers."
You make some good points in general, but Coleman seems to be everything a cop should not be...
They chased a traffic stop. This wasn't some crazed murderer on the run. And then the guy tried to comply with the order. He tried to drop his gun. But the officer shot him when he tried to.
The officer has also been involved in 4 other shootings.
So much for "most officers never even pull their gun..."
You can't go by what if. I'm so tired of people defending their stance because of whataboutism. It's a shitty argument. Dude was literally running for his life. I will be honest, I don't know the full extent of the situation yet, but I do agree with you that people shouldn't just jump on the bandwagon just because a cop shot someone. But just looking at the video, I don't see why this kid was shot. Did the kid shoot at the officer? Did the kid threaten the officer's life? Those are the questions I don't know.
Should I fear for my life just because I am carrying a gun? I live in an open carry state. I don't carry anymore, but I see plenty of people walking around with a weapon. my first thought isn't that the person is a criminal just because they carry and I really don't have much thought about it at all.
My views on this are still neutral until I know more information, but please don't go on about whataboutism.
The guy that got shot was part of a car chase that switched to a foot chase after the cars tire blew out. The guy didn't just walk down the road with a gun. In the video you can also see the guy making a strange movement with the gun just before the cop shot. It most likely was to throw the gun away but the cop couldn't have known that. And given the overall circumstances shooting at this point seems reasonable.
But the cop is still a piece of shit that shouldn't have been a cop by this point anymore. He is a cop since 2018 and has been involved in now 5 shootings (far higher than the average). And he was part of the badge bending scandal. Where cops bent the tips of their badge to mark fatal shootings. Any cop who does that, shouldn't be a cop.
Luckily the guy survived, unfortunately the cop will stay a cop.
He threw a gun away right in front of the cop. It would be a weird move to throw one away and shoot with the other one.
In the same comment where you suggest people stop going by what if, you say:
You’re making a stance based on your admitted lack of information, and a single video that doesn’t show the whole story.
"We don't have enough information" is a perfectly valid stance to take when you lack information.
It should in fact be the default stance to take when lacking information.
Doesn' matter, unless you have a reasonable belief that they will use that weapon unlawfully simply possessing it is nothing but an extra charge and you cannot shoot a fleeing suspect unless you have ras to believe that they are dangerous and that suspicion cannot be generalized and inarticulate.
So much this. If we aren't going to restrict possession of firearms in any way then we can't use that as a basis for intent. Just replace, "had a gun", with literally any other constitutionally protected right and this argument falls flat on its face.
"He was using words, we will never know if he was about to run into a theater and yell 'fire'..."
The pig lied for a reason. Why are you justifying the execution and cover-up?
Not everything is black and white. There's nuance to every situation, and this user brings up good points
Ok, but he still justified the attempted execution and cover-up...I don't see how that is acceptable‽
No, he literally gave a caveat that the cover up was still unacceptable.
He pretty clearly calls out that he's not justifying the execution and cover up.
He does both. Re-read what OP said.
So? When situations like this occur in Australia our police will taze first. (unless you're indigenous or POC....).
The police have other effective methods of stopping a violent person from running into other houses.
Wasn't it just last week some cop in NSW gunned someone down for looking at him crossways?
Edit: my bad, it was 2 years ago that 4 cops went on a hunt and shot a guy in his own yard for wearing a hoodie. 2 days before Christmas. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-19/nsw-police-brad-balzan-inquest-st-marys/103600190
Thank you, I hadn't heard this story as it's not from my state and it shows that the institute of policing is flawed and filled without gun happy scared little monkeys in every country.
If the suspect raises the stakes to endangering life, half measures don't cut it.
You have a gun out in front of an officer, I am not surprised when tensions rise and someone gets shot.
Shoot someone, who is not immediately threatening another person, in the back in Australia and you are going to jail even if you’re a cop.
America has a broken justice system and dysfunctional police.
So were the cops, and they actually shot people dead! Why aren't they fair game to shoot?
yea the article should have been titled armed 18 year old too but you know they probably believe that ends justify the means. in any case seems like this police was one of them trigger happy ones who probably wont feel a drop of remorse over this.
Very well said!
The media did a great job brainwashing everyone, most of the time they only show cops doing something bad, when the police do something, they just ignore it, even if they do cover it, the majority of people just don't give a fuck. I've run into both bad cops and good cops, not every cop is the same, but people straight up refuse to acknowledge that. They don't know that if all cops are actually bad, people would riot and fight back everywhere instead of what we have now.