Would you be fine with the reverse, USA or Germany or someone invading if those countries had been joining CSTO for example? Would a military alliance aligned away from those countries be a justification enough for attacking them and killing their people? I wouldn't think so.

If you think US would be fine with countries that border it joining an alliance with Russia you're even more ignorant than I thought. Go read up on the Cuban missile crisis.

And tell me, are you fine with the US behaviour there? And I didn't say they'd be fine with it, I said I wouldn't be fine with them doing it.

I literally provided you with a source. Maybe work on that reading comprehension of yours?

Your source doesn't prove that "most Ukrainians aren't even in Ukraine anymore". If anything, based on all estimates of current Ukrainian population I could find compared to the refugee numbers you provided, it argues against that point.

What number are you using for Ukraine's current total population?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Governments aligning themselves differently to how you’d like is no justification for invading them and killing their people.

Interesting way to describe the west overthrowing a democratically elected government in a violent coup.

Would you be fine with the reverse, USA or Germany or someone invading if those countries had been joining CSTO for example?

This isn't a hypothetical, we already know what the west does.

And tell me, are you fine with the US behaviour there? And I didn’t say they’d be fine with it, I said I wouldn’t be fine with them doing it.

Not being an utter imbecile, I understand that this would be the only possible outcome. Provoking such an outcome is either idiotic or intentionally malicious.

Your source doesn’t prove that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”.

Go look up the population of Ukraine before and after the war. If you really can't figure out how google works then come back and I'll help you.

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

This isn’t a hypothetical, we already know what the west does.

And how do you feel about that, do you think it is proper justification?

Not being an utter imbecile, I understand that this would be the only possible outcome. Provoking such an outcome is either idiotic or intentionally malicious.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

Go look up the population of Ukraine before and after the war. If you really can’t figure out how google works then come back and I’ll help you.

You provided the figures for how many refugees there are and have claimed that proves that "most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore". But the total refugees from that source are nowhere near the estimates for current Ukrainian population, even on low end. So I'm not sure how that proves your point. Maybe you've misunderstood something but I have been googling this and the numbers I've found go against what you are saying.

So yes, please help me. It's kinda what I've been asking since the start but you've been pretty standoffish about it.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

And how do you feel about that, do you think it is proper justification?

I think that's how the world works, and feels have nothing to do with it. The reality is that no great power will allow another great power to surround it with its proxies. So, either you think that there should be constant war between great powers, or you accept boundaries.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

See above.

So yes, please help me. It’s kinda what I’ve been asking since the start but you’ve been pretty standoffish about it.

Let me rephrase that, most fighting age males have fled Ukraine at this point

Those who remain are not interested in fighting either as even western media admits now https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/15/world/europe/ukraine-military-recruitment.html

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee -1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I think that’s how the world works, and feels have nothing to do with it. The reality is that no great power will allow another great power to surround it with its proxies. So, either you think that there should be constant war between great powers, or you accept boundaries.

And do you feel like that is proper justification for invading and attacking countries, killing people?

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/UKR/ukraine/population

But that shows that the current population is ≈37,9 million, pre-escalation (2021) ≈43,5 million, pre-war ≈45,1 million. (The total ever in 1992, ≈51,8 million.) Can you explain to me how your numbers prove that "most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore"?

E: Seems you've edited the comment

Let me rephrase that, most fighting age males have fled Ukraine at this point

Talk about moving the goalposts, eh. But anyway we can probably agree that "most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore" isn't true then?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

And do you feel like that is proper justification for invading and attacking countries, killing people?

I've already explained that feels have nothing to do with anything. I do however think it's idiotic to provoke wars based on feels when the outcomes are obvious.

Talk about moving the goalposts, eh. But anyway we can probably agree that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore” isn’t true then?

Sure, I misspoke there.

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I’ve already explained that feels have nothing to do with anything. I do however think it’s idiotic to provoke wars based on feels when the outcomes are obvious.

I was more thinking if you thought that Russia (or in other cases US) would be in the wrong in invading other countries in such situations and being against such wars.

misspoke

I mean, I did quote it back to you verbatim many times and we both made it amply clear that it was population we were talking about, you also talking about "population of Ukraine" and so on. So not sure I believe that instead of simply just having been wrong. But it's fine either way.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I was more thinking if you thought that Russia (or in other cases US) would be in the wrong in invading other countries in such situations and being against such wars.

You're just doing moralizing here which serve no practical purpose.

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Do you really refrain from calling out such invasions and wars because that "serve no practical purpose"? I find that surprising.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Do you really not understand that provoking wars simply results in mass death and suffering? Or perhaps you enjoy other people dying and suffering, I'm begging to think the latter is actually the case here.

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee -2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I'm just saying I'm against such wars. Aren't you?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I am against wars, and NATO provoked this war by pushing past Russia's red lines. Russia responded the exact same way NATO would've responded if Russia was the one pushing into NATO. So, if you're against senseless wars then you should be against NATO expansion.

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I'm just surprised you're against Russia's war in Ukraine. I didn't expect that.

Sometimes people get so hung up on their ideologies that they permit something for some people or side that they'd absolutely condemn for the other. It's all too common. But I shouldn't have assumed that was the case here.