this post was submitted on 29 Feb 2024
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Men's Liberation

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This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.

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This community might be harmful (lemmy.ca)
submitted 8 months ago by olivebranch@lemmy.ca to c/mensliberation@lemmy.ca
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This community sends "All lives matter" vibes. I understand that there are issues with how men are treated and there is nothing wrong with talking about it, but it does seem a little bit like a distraction from feminism issues. Women are objectively under a lot bigger threat and talking about women rights more makes a lot more sense. Of course, mentioning how men are treated is also useful, but dedicating a whole community to exactly this part of the problem seems a bit problematic. It would be more useful for it to be about general issues of gender roles or something like that, this way it seems like it is targeting feminism.

Furthermore, I heard that unionbusting companies now are starting to focus on feminism, racial inclusion and etc. Because it makes everyone uncomfortable and devides people by some arbitary characteristics. That makes people less likely to unite in their common interests, because it is percieved that their interests are very different, which is not the case.

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[–] anarchost@lemm.ee 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

When MRAs believe in a positive goal, it is almost certainly reached via a terrible thought process. Praising an MRA for coming to a good ethical decision is like praising Two-Face.

Which MRA thinkers have affected meaningful change for men, without throwing women under the bus in the process?

[–] Blamemeta@lemm.ee -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I'll go google for a list if you answer a couple questions.

What is the thought process, and why is it terrible? Do you really think its a zero sum game?

[–] anarchost@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

First, let me define my terms. When I talk about MRAs, I talk about the ones in the broader online manosphere:

The manosphere is a heterogeneous group of online communities that includes men's-rights activists (MRAs), incels (involuntary celibates), Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW), pick-up artists (PUAs), and fathers' rights groups. Some groups within the manosphere have adversarial relationships with one another... subgroups such as MRAs and PUAs "exaggerate their differences in displays of infight posturing, in spite of the fact that their philosophies are almost identical".

What is their thought process:

Journalist Caitlin Dewey argues that the main tenets of the manosphere can be reduced to (1) the corruption of modern society by feminism, in violation of inherent sex differences between men and women; and (2) the ability of men to save society or achieve sexual prowess by adopting a hyper-masculine role and forcing women to submit to them.

Do you really think its a zero sum game:

I don't, but they do. The above Wikipedia article cites its sources, in case you don't believe me.

Why it is terrible:

If the MRA movement believes men's rights and women's rights are a zero-sum game, then it's a terrible movement right? I think we agree on that.

[–] Blamemeta@lemm.ee -3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

Okay, I dont strictly agree with those terms, that MRAs are part of the "manosphere". Im sure you could probably find assholes who do hate women, but you can also find feminists who hate men, and feminism as a whole doesnt hate men. Thats just a case of wikipedia being absolute trash when it comes to politics.

In any case, I owe you a list. Google is giving me grief and only shows stuff from like splc and various other feminist groups. I did find this, but its not much. https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/wiki/faq#wiki_35._does_.2Fr.2Fmensrights_act_in_any_way_that_has_an_impact_on_the_real_world.3F

Edit: but I can see why youd be opposed to mras if you did think MRAs were part of the manosphere. I would be too.

[–] anarchost@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Based on your Reddit link, I would say that my Wikipedia link identifies the same group as you did. Of course, I'm not going to hold you to the opinions of individual shitty people within a group as long as that group doesn't choose them or those particular positions as representative of the group.

I'm also not going to hold you as a representative of the group either. If you're unfamiliar enough with them to not be able to rattle off a couple names (and not just withholding them out of spite) then I imagine you aren't particularly committed to the movement as it exists, anyway. You can feel free to say "well fuck them" if you feel like it.

With that out of the way, allow me to tear into the largest and lowest hanging fruit. From your source:

IS THE MEN'S RIGHTS MOVEMENT A COHERENT GROUP?

Not really. There are a growing number of official advocacy groups that lobby for men's issues, but they are scattered and focused on specific issues. Some advocacy groups include: A Voice For Men, The Community Of The Wrongly Accused, Fathers and Families, Media Radar.

I remember A Voice For Men because it is one of the worst groups that could represent men's rights, period. With one of the most reprehensible people as its founder. From Wikipedia and extensively sourced:

In early 2011, AVFM created the website Register-Her, a wiki page that initially listed the names, addresses, and other personal information of women convicted of murdering or raping men.

So a doxxing website exclusively targeted at women, but at least they only targeted actual felons, right?

Nope.

Later, the site's operators expanded the registry include women they judged guilty of "false rape accusations" or "anti-male bigotry". They also began publishing personal information about women who participated in protests against the men's rights movement (MRM), who mocked the MRM on social media, or who publicly supported feminism. [Website owner Paul] Elam said that there would no longer be "any place to hide on the internet" for "lying bitches". The site was closed for a time, but restored at different web address (at least, until February 18, 2020).

Paul Elam himself:

...argued women who allow men to buy them drinks or drunkenly kiss men “ARE NOT ASKING TO BE RAPED. They are freaking begging for it. Damn near demanding it.”

[–] Blamemeta@lemm.ee -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

You got it spot on, I'm not a MRA, Im honestly not very familar with the goings on. I just see them on /all and /popular from time to time, and thats when I glance at the front page on their respective subs.

Everytime I glance at the mens rights sub, its about the issues men face, and overcoming them, or solving them, or just talking about the issues. Uplifting men in general.

Everytime at glance at the mens lib, its a bunch of posts about how men are the real monsters, how men should be more feminine, how men are sexist without knowing it, how men are the oppressors, how men are to blame for their issues, how masculinity is toxic, etc etc.

Notably menslib fills their sub with the weird kind of feminism, and has no room left for overcoming mens issues or helping men in general.

And yes, like many groups, mras arent exactly coherent. Theres definitely some assholes among them, same as feminism, same as mens lib, Im sure. Hell, a few suffragettes went on to become OG fascists. Every large group of humans has assholes. That does not mean the group is bad, just that theyre human.

You really have to go with what they say and do as a whole, and make your own judgement. The klan was bad. The suffragettes were good. That sort of thing. I cant convince you of anything, this is an internet argument, but maybe give the sub a chance. And definitely stay away from A voice for men, fucking christ.

[–] anarchost@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago

Well, that's why I asked about the figureheads that you believed were correct in the movement. Anybody can stumble in and be accidentally correct or incorrect, but the issue with the men's rights advocates as a whole is that their ideology springs from people like Paul Elam and his organization. They were the number one group in your link.

It's important to start from a solid basis, and that's where feminism starts from the right place and anti-feminism starts from absolutely the wrong one.

[–] anarchost@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago

I do appreciate your edit with the confirmation that you are here in good faith, BTW. 😁