As an American-Brit who has been living in Sweden for a couple of years, I've always found it interesting that pretty much everyone I know here can be found at their home address simply by googling their name and clicking on hitta.se. When I show this to my British or American friends, they're always shocked, and I find myself explaining that "Swedes have a very different, more trusting, relationship with their government than Brits or Americans."
Personally, I've never had a problem arise from this, and neither has anyone I know here, but I've been here less than for two years. I love it here and I can see myself living here for the rest of my life (that is, if you'll have me! Soon time to renew my visa!)
But I find myself wondering: Has anyone here, or anyone you know, ever had a problem arise from their address being listed publicly? Strange people turning up at your door, weird post or packages, or something worse?
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The original was posted on /r/sweden by /u/adjectivenounnr at 2023-07-06 07:00:45+00:00.
AggravatingWill3081 at 2023-07-06 08:40:09+00:00 ID:
jqv6xx0Yeah, I love how an american has taken this as "Swedes have a very different, more trusting, relationship with their government than Brits or Americans.", but really it has been used to call out representives of our government for shitty frauds.
I also don't understand wtf it has to do with the government anyways, does OP think the government doesn't know where people live without hitta.se? Or that they will use it in some nefarious way?
Even their own example is about people using it to send shit or turn up, so wtf does it have to do with our relationsship with the government? Seems unrelated but also very "my amandments, my rights, dont tread on me!", so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it crossed(blew) a yanks mind.
Grigor50 at 2023-07-06 09:23:31+00:00 ID:
jqva1iqIt's more a question of political culture and culture in general. "Government" and "state" doesn't mean quite the same thing here as there, nor do any of related terms. The entire mindset is often different, and what is normal in Sweden is sometimes absurd or alarming over there, and vice versa.
Zoownedd at 2023-07-06 13:12:21+00:00 ID:
jqvvx7vBoy thats the biggest cap ever
Ahhhhrg at 2023-07-06 10:53:06+00:00 ID:
jqvh32eI'm a Swede living in the UK, and I can tell you various (local) government bodies have no fucking clue where I live. There's no central body keeping track of where I live like skatteverket and folkbokföringen, so they all have their own records and don't necessarily cross-reference.
AggravatingWill3081 at 2023-07-06 11:25:41+00:00 ID:
jqvk2ivI'm a Swede that has lived, studied and worked a significant amount of my life in the UK and have to say that basically EVERYTHING governmental bodies-wise is an absolute pisstake in the UK. I honestly could go on the longest fucking rant, but for example; I had MORONIC friends being able to get multiple council houses for a fucking penny(think 20 quid a week at fkn most), if they had to pay anything at all. Yet again, these were the most moronic friends you can imagine, but even they knew how to use the fucking lack of control and cross-reference to their own (illegal) benefit.
TL;DR - yes I agree with you, but the UK is an absolute fucking joke and not worthy of comparing. And I say this as someone much more "at home" in London than Stockholm.
adjectivenounnr (OP) at 2023-07-06 09:07:12+00:00 ID:
jqv8vnyIn the US and UK, there is no legal requirement to give your address to the government. Of course the government can find people's address from eg. their drivers license, vehicle registration or tax filings, but if you don't own a car and don't pay income tax, the government doesn't know your address. Unlike in Sweden, there's no such thing as folkbokföringsbrott.
I never said that the government would use it in some nefarious way, but that I was wondering if the government requiring the information and making it publicly available might have led to some problems for people. It looks like it has for some commenters here, but not for most people.
BehindTheFloat at 2023-07-06 09:25:49+00:00 ID:
jqva7jeDo you know why there's no such obligation? Honestly, I assumed that registering your address was mandatory basically everywhere in the world. I think it seems like a very reasonable way for the government to organise their citizens.
adjectivenounnr (OP) at 2023-07-06 09:29:43+00:00 ID:
jqvahk6I'm not saying whether it's reasonable or unreasonable, but I suspect that most democracies constantly fear the possibility of their governments abusing that information
1peopleperson1 at 2023-07-06 09:46:50+00:00 ID:
jqvbqs6I agree with you OP, and I do think it is unreasonable. I'm born and raised in Sweden, although I do have a parent from the states.
avskaffamonarkin at 2023-07-06 12:50:47+00:00 ID:
jqvt8gjHence the explanation that:
Albasvea at 2023-07-06 22:03:43+00:00 ID:
jqy4j1hDoesn't need to be in the UK, they ha e GCHQ....
borrelliborr at 2023-07-06 14:47:10+00:00 ID:
jqw94ztYou have to pay tax. Even in the US. Otherwise it is tax evasion. The government knows where you live. Believing anything else is naive.
adjectivenounnr (OP) at 2023-07-06 14:55:13+00:00 ID:
jqwacd1Not if you earn less than the minimum taxable income (about $20k). It's obviously not the majority, but still a large group of people who don't have any legal requirement to give their address to the government. If you don't have any tax obligation, have never committed a crime and don't have a driver's license, there would be no point at which the government would ask you for your address.
borrelliborr at 2023-07-06 15:15:16+00:00 ID:
jqwdc2rThe strange part is that you see this as a positive to me it sounds like the US government only care about its people if they are rich. Which is the truth. If you care for the well-being of your people you need information to be able to help them.
adjectivenounnr (OP) at 2023-07-06 15:17:35+00:00 ID:
jqwdoo8I think you're massively misunderstanding American political culture. Here's a 10 second video clip that should explain it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCedOQJ0ZEA
borrelliborr at 2023-07-06 15:23:44+00:00 ID:
jqwemceThe fact that you can’t acknowledge that the American government has no interest in poor people is pretty telling. No matter if you put any moral value behind it. With the class divides that exist in the US it is clear that the US government has no interest for poor people
Mao_Chan_ at 2023-07-06 10:37:52+00:00 ID:
jqvfrocBut if you dont pay taxes you are techincaly a criminal so IRS Will find you instead
adjectivenounnr (OP) at 2023-07-06 11:11:50+00:00 ID:
jqvirwnOnly if you owe taxes, which some people (for example those who earn less than the minimum tax bracket) do not.
lobax at 2023-07-06 09:17:37+00:00 ID:
jqv9mfaI mean, there are ”Yellow pages” in the US and UK as well? Hitta is no different.
The fact that the government needs to know where its citizens live is a separate thing but fully reasonable as well.
teamcemi at 2023-07-06 09:22:00+00:00 ID:
jqv9xmzThey are very different since you can find all folkbokförda over 16 in Sweden on hitta due to offentlighetsprincipen. Yellow pages is more “best effort based on the tiny info they might have (or most likely don’t have)”
lobax at 2023-07-06 09:24:56+00:00 ID:
jqva584The sources of information are still often public records from various government agencies. E.g. election rolls, land registry etc.
E.g. this is Hitta in the UK: https://www.192.com
teamcemi at 2023-07-06 10:36:43+00:00 ID:
jqvfo43Yes I can’t find my colleague on this page even tho I know his full name and city and he has a very unique surname. If he had lived in sweden i would have found him in 10s.
as I said “best effort”
adjectivenounnr (OP) at 2023-07-06 09:19:44+00:00 ID:
jqv9rpoYes, but Yellow Pages and telephone books are for businesses, not for individuals. The government knowing where citizens live is not the point of this post, but the fact that the Swedish equivalents of Yellow Pages (Hitta.se, etc.) source their information from the government, and thereby can list every individual's address nationwide. That's unique to Sweden, and this post was not intended as a criticism, but as genuine curiosity about the implications of that system
lobax at 2023-07-06 09:21:26+00:00 ID:
jqv9w5tHere is the exact same service from the UK, built on public government records:
https://www.192.com/people/?gclid=CjwKCAjwzJmlBhBBEiwAEJyLuzAsLaLfmwAS_9fDyWNssEgP3QfVggT5wjYMXpwMur-t3EfodaXvEhoCzRcQAvD_BwE
adjectivenounnr (OP) at 2023-07-06 09:28:07+00:00 ID:
jqvadf9If you try using that (and similar sites for the UK), you'll find a year and month next to each person listed, which is when they were able to last scrape the information from the DVLA or HMRC. I looked up some friends and family, and nobody had any info later than 2007! So yes, there are attempts by entrepreneurs to create a similar system, but without realtime information from the government, it's impossible. Here in Stockholm when I moved apartments, Hitta.se had my new address within 48 hours!
lobax at 2023-07-06 09:31:13+00:00 ID:
jqvalc2Yes, there is a difference in that the Swedish record keeping is much more organized and efficient.
But this idea that it is unfathomable that the government knows where you live and that it shares that information as public records is just as true in the UK and US as it is here. Those governments are just less good at organizing that information and keeping it up to date.
adjectivenounnr (OP) at 2023-07-06 09:54:38+00:00 ID:
jqvcca1It's a big difference: The Swedish government makes the information publicly available, the UK and US governments do not. It requires a lot more work for companies to gather address data on Americans and Brits, whereas it's a simple integration to get realtime address data on Swedes. Again, I'm not intending to criticise the policy, I'm just curious about its implications
lobax at 2023-07-06 10:14:30+00:00 ID:
jqvdvmtThis is not a difference in policy, the principles are exactly the same. The US and UK have virtually the exact same public record and freedom of information laws as Sweden does.
It’s a difference in execution: Swedish government agencies are highly digital and able to cater those requests with automated API’s. Those API’s where also not built for public records requests, but for government operations. The public records are just handled in the cheapest way possible - using those automated API’s.
The practical implications of this is not in Services like Hitta or Yellow pages, it’s in stuff like just being able to interact with a government agency online and without having to fill out a million forms with the same information each time.
unusedusername42 at 2023-07-06 10:30:54+00:00 ID:
jqvf6nqI know one person who had a problem with it, due to an abusive ex, but as soon as she got a protected ID she was safe again. People in jobs that are considered risky makes sure that their work role can not be tied to their full name, private number etc instead
Neat username, btw! :D
scifi887 at 2023-07-06 10:45:17+00:00 ID:
jqvgei1You can request to be ex-directory in the UK and have yourself easily removed from any yellow pages or similar. As far as I know you can't do that in Sweden.
lobax at 2023-07-06 12:26:09+00:00 ID:
jqvqe68You absolutely can :)
https://hitta.zendesk.com/hc/sv/articles/207655179-Ta-bort-alla-mina-uppgifter-från-Hitta-se
Wrong-Reputation-577 at 2023-07-06 09:15:24+00:00 ID:
jqv9go4Offentlighetsprincipen:))))
stenapan at 2023-07-06 12:06:34+00:00 ID:
jqvo8t2😂 Condescending much?
ArchmageIlmryn at 2023-07-06 12:53:21+00:00 ID:
jqvtjudIt's the combination of the government having a central identification database (folkbokföring och personnummer) which just doesn't exist in say the US, and the fact that offentlighetsprincipen means that most of the data in that database is public.
Chiepmate at 2023-07-06 09:14:59+00:00 ID:
jqv9fnqI, as a Dutch, was very surprised as well . So it certainly is not only a ' Yanks' concern, For me it's the lack of privacy. Another illustration of this is that in the company I work, or even the kids' schools , the email addresses of all the parents involved are visible. No blind copies at all. It seems the Swedes are far less privacy concerned.
ProffesorSpitfire at 2023-07-06 11:19:08+00:00 ID:
jqvjg9yAbout your kids’ school platform: that sounds both great and unfortunately illegal. Since GDPR was passed a few years ago it’s no longer legal for an organization to share the personal or contact information about a customer, client, dependant or similar with a third party without their consent.
Me and my wife often complain about how difficult it is to get in contact with other kids’ parents because of this. When I was a kid (90’s) you’d get a list with the first and last name of all kids in class as well as their home phone number. If you want to discuss something with another kids parents (play date, birthday party, issue at school/pre-school, etc), you cant unless you happen to drop off/pick up kids at the same time.
felixfj007 at 2023-07-06 16:44:32+00:00 ID:
jqwr3mnWait, they stopped doing those "parents-list"? That's gonna be some headaches when/if I become a parent..
AdventurousSquash at 2023-07-06 09:29:20+00:00 ID:
jqvagjvAt least for my kids school platform you can chose to share your email so that other parents can find it. Otherwise it sounds more like a crappy design issue and users might not even be aware.
AlexDaBruh at 2023-07-06 10:59:04+00:00 ID:
jqvhm6rWhich school platform? If it’s the Stockholm School Platform, aka SkolPlattformen, it’s a privacy hell. You could literally access anyone’s account by simply editing the URL to change the user. This was patched of course, but the fact that they use SharePoint for SkolPlattformen is concerning. SharePoint might also be the worst buggy mess I’ve ever seen.
Hezth at 2023-07-06 16:46:50+00:00 ID:
jqwrgkqSimilar to how I got in trouble for exploiting weaknesses in the schools cloud system, in gymnasiet, and accessing other students cloud storage.
eeeponthemove at 2023-07-06 10:20:23+00:00 ID:
jqvece4Well actually concerning kids in school etc we have very strict privacy
Zelera6 at 2023-07-06 10:57:36+00:00 ID:
jqvhhjrWhen I was in elementary school, we got booklets of every school-kid's address and phone number. This was great because if we had complaints over another kid acting badly towards us, our parents could just call their parents and complain (I had one issue where one girl called her older guy friend to meet me up near where I live "because he needed a girlfriend" and I found it creepy, so I told my mom, who called this girl's parents - and then I never had problems with her again). Or we could find out how to contact our classmates (party invitations by mail or phone for example). Nowadays, I wouldn't be surprised if they have emails instead.
hallonlakrits at 2023-07-06 09:00:40+00:00 ID:
jqv8f1qWow, much bold text.