I've been a DM for about 3 years, and have predominantly run one-shots and short campaigns in DnD5e and PF2e. I have a player who persistently builds primary caster based characters, but then won't do anything in combat but "I stab it with my dagger." They rarely use cantrips, and basically won't cast a leveled spell unless I suggest it immediately before their turn. They seem to enjoy playing despite the fact that they're far too squishy to be a front-line melee character and don't utilize most of their class features. I've talked with them explicitly about how their play style seems to be discordant with the kind of play they want to do, and that maybe next time they should try a paladin/champion or a fighter/rougue subclass with some minor casting. They agreed at the time that sounded like a good idea, but low and behold showed up to the next one-shot with a primary caster, and over 3 hours of play and 3 combats never cast a single spell, including a cantrip.
I enjoy playing with this persons as a whole. They are engaged in the fiction, and are particularly engaged during exploration activities. They tell me they also find combat quite fun, and they are requesting I run a mega dungeon in the near future.
As a general rule, I like to let people play how they have the most fun, but issues have arisen with this play style. Namely, all of my TPKs have been associated with this player charging a squishy character directly up to a significantly stronger villain and continuing to stab it with a dagger until they went down, significantly hindering the party in the action economy and resulting in a TPK. I feel I have to intentionally weaken all of my encounters to keep the party feasible in the face of such mechanically poor combat choices.
What else can I do to help drive this individual towards melee builds, and/or help encourage them to change their play style to better suite the caster classes they choose?
“I run up and stab it with my dagger!”
“Are you sure? As a wizard, your dagger is very ineffective and puts you in harm’s way. You could cast fire bolt from where you are standing. You’d have a better chance to hit, do more damage, remain safe, and play to your character’s strengths more. Do you want to do that instead?”
“I’m trying to save my spells for an emergency”
“Well fire bolt is a cantrip, so it never runs out and you can use it every turn like a fighter would use their weapon. Cantrips are the ‘auto-attacks’ for spell casters”
I can’t understand your situation OP if the exchange I described above isn’t the solution. I play with newbies and first timers all the time and we constantly strategize in combat so they can learn how to play as we go. Would your player really say “no, I don’t care, I stab them” after being presented with that option? If so, I think they are doing this intentionally because they think it’s funny or interesting, not because they don’t know better
I've noticed this behaviour in people that are unfamiliar with video games or board games.
They're looking at it, with a very high level approach. Like someone who's reading a book or watching a movie. It's not their character, it's just a character in a big story.
Another variant is the person who is rigidly following the quirk or backstory they've created. Sometimes to a level that they aren't able to critically process. Overlooking it's a cooperative game and that this type of character will not play well with the team.
Another concern is that new players who experience anxiety will take those hints from the DM and act on them like an order. Resulting in the player unplugging from the game and just doing what they're told with minimal comprehension or the type that locks in on their action because it was challenged. (This is what caused me to break up with my bf)
I can see where you are coming from but OP assures us that this player knows about games and specifically makes caster characters. This isn’t one sorcerer with a quirk in their backstory about never using their magic, this is multiple characters in a row. I play with new players all the time. Maybe an occasional person will take others’ suggestions as law, but if they do the same thing too many times in a row or force themselves to use the move you recommended when it still doesn’t make sense, you just keep guiding them.
“Don’t forget you have other cantrips too. Using fire bolt was a suggestion. In this fight, you could try using your shocking grasp to get away. Or you could use your magic missile for some guaranteed damage on that heavily-armored hobgoblin. It uses one of your slots, but now seems as good a time as any. They’re no good to you when you’re dead.”
The DM and even the other players should be chiming in with suggestions on other players’ turns. It can get annoying when you know how to play and others are telling you what to do, but if you had a fighter player who just stood in combat and took a disengage action every turn, wouldn’t you eventually speak up and suggest they try a dodge or an attack instead?
That's why I came to the community. I feel like I'm a reasonable and half-way experienced DM at this point. The player is aware cantrips are unlimited use. The player is a very intelligent individual. I've had the conversations about spell use. At its core, I genuinely think the player is attracted to the "cool factor" and "aesthetic" of playing a caster but doesn't actually want to engage with any of the mechanics. I can remind the player about spells and that reminder will last for a combat, sometimes less. I feel like I've done everything I know to do aside from straight banning the player from playing full casters or queuing them to cast spells every-other turn, I'm at a loss.
You'll have to start killing their character more often. They want to do front line tactics, they can take front line damage, no softballs. Oh, 1d10 kills you in 3 hits, and the mobs chase you because you're squishy? Damn, maybe get some AC and constitution, or attack from a distance.
I go back and forth on this. I feel like I'm enabling these choices by pulling punches. But it feels excessively anti-fun to just kill them and be like "sorry lol be better". I don't think I have the heart to just murder characters all the time.
There's a difference between punishment and consequences. If you rush into battle with a foam sword and a gun but only use the sword, you're going to get wrecked because you brought the wrong equipment. Try it in BG3 and see how far you get.
My new sword for my next BG3 playthrough:
https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Practice_Sword
Do you have the chance to sit the whole group down together and tank about that?
As in, tell them what you told us - you can't dm as you normally would and have to keepepulling punches because he keeps endangering the group and you dont want to punish the group for his bad choices. Remind them that you are supposed to have fun too and dming like you're walking on eggshells is killing yours.
I'm suggesting bringing it up with the whole group because it sounds like you brought it up with the player alone already. Or maybe you have focused too much on how they could play better instevd of how it negatively affects the group. Maybe they need to realize that even if this is fun for them, it's not for you - and maybe not for the others as well.
IMHO, this is something that should be talked trough with the group. Getting less lenient and not weakening your encounters is risking the wole group's fun, so it should be discussed with the group.
Enabling choices per se is a good thing, but if you have to rely on someone for life and death who knows how to shoot a gun, owns it, brings it and yet only uses a knife in the gunfight, it's gonna get you killed. And this should happen. Just make sure everybody knows about this.
Maybe this will spark discussion about why he makes these characters and why he plays them like this. Maybe it can help find something he enjoys. If not, the group is now prepared to die more often and you don't have to pull punches.
"Oh no, you opened an ancient container with a curse that turned your mage into a barbarian. Darn. Better luck next time. Let's keep going"
There’s really no right answer here and I don’t think it’s something that we can work through without that player involved in the conversation. It’s not that they don’t know better, it’s not that you haven’t helped them, it’s not that you haven’t made suggestions, and they’ve been doing this for 3 YEARS??? I’m sorry, but this is above my pay grade. I am almost certain there is some detail that I’m missing because this makes zero sense. I have played with veterans of all walks and ages, new players who are 8 years old, new players that are 60 years old, and everywhere in between. It just doesn’t make sense unless there’s more to it.
Sit down with the player again. Ask why they don’t use cantrips. Leave the leveled spells aside for now (saving them forever is a problem, but an understandable one). Continue to remind them every combat, every turn, every time they take out their dagger. I know you said your group doesn’t know the rules well, so maybe it’s time to learn (3 YEARS???). Cantrips and weapons work exactly the same, so I don’t know how “not wanting to engage with the mechanics” has anything to with it. There’s something going on and I can’t be sure what it is without talking to this player themselves
It's not quite 3 years. I've been DMing for about 3. This player has been playing on-and-off for about 1.5. I have complicated the rules a touch because in the last 8mo or so I've switched to PF2e. I mean this problem in specific isn't that system specific, so I don't think that really excuses it.
But all-in-all you're right. The most effective answer is find another group that is more invested in the game. I'm moving across the country in a few months, so I guess I should just ride the issue out a little longer and then move on, which is a huge bummer. I guess in the meantime I'll try and remind them more regularly and once again have the conversation about "Why?"
Thank you
Remind them every, single, turn.
“Really? Your dagger? Not your cantrip?”
“Oh yeah, I always forget about those”
If they prefer to use it for thematic or aesthetic reasons, they’ll tell you and the mystery will be solved. Maybe there’s a class that does what they want and you can push them towards it. Or maybe they really are just that forgetful and they just need to be reminded every turn. Consider giving them a character sheet that more obviously shows what they can do. Action cards, spell cards, stuff like that might help too. But ultimately, just don’t let them make a dagger attack. Just stop them and present the better option EVERY TIME. You’ll learn one way or another what they want because they’ll go with it or resist it
And I’m not necessarily saying to find a new group (although it seems like you’ll have no choice since you’re moving). I’m just saying, I cant imagine how you could keep playing with this person and no one at the table is making suggestions on how to play their turns. My players strategize about each others’ turns constantly. It’s a bit meta-gamey, but they’re newer and don’t know all the mechanics well so I never stop them. In fact, I try to help them find the course of action that will make them feel the coolest or the most useful without outright telling them what to do
My table tends to not metagame at all, even in situations I really wish they would. I think of all the answers I've gotten, this is the most reasonable and actionable answer. Just remind the player more often. I'm gonna have to come up with a good way to not sound like a condescending asshole because this is the only player I'm going to have to do it to. It just sucks cause it's one more thing I've gotta do while running combat. But that's life I guess