politics
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
view the rest of the comments
As a matter of technicality, you are both legally and historically illiterate. Based on this argument a trial court would have to rule on whether every single presidential candidate was over the age of 35, and a natural born citizen in order to qualify for office. That is OBVIOUSLY not the case as those provisions are self-executing. It is also obvious that based on the plain language of the constitution that the 14th Ammendment is self-executing as well. It is another LEGALLY STIPULATED PRECONDITION OF ELIGIBILITY FOR OFFICE.
However, many members of the current Supreme Court have made it clear that they consider both law and precedent to be entirely permeable, despite their strongly worded assertions to the contrary. So because of that, I also expect them to put forth some novel legal theory as to why they must go against their own publicly stated legal philosophies to allow Trump to stay on the ballot, history and precedent be damned.
This is an extremely critical part of the constitution. Venezuela disentegrated into shit precisely because they did not have this requirement. Hugo Chavez led a failed coup in 1992. And then was allowed to run for president in 1998 despite his clear disloyalty to democracy. After becoming president, he turned a long stable democracy into total shit and it remains so today.
How did you come with that? No part of the 14th Amendment has EVER been "self executing". There's been an almost uncountable number of court cases involving the 14th Amendment, including many of the most famous ones. I see no reason why Section 3 is somehow different than any of the others.
In the most famous use of Section 3 there WAS a conviction on a charges of espionage before a sanction was applied.
The argument you are making is currently popular, because fuck Trump, but there is no historical basis for it and at least one example against it.
First, this example was an adjudication of the facts regarding FITNESS, and not based on his CONVICTION under the Espionage Act. He was disqualified in almost entirely the same way that Donald Trump was disqualified in Colorado. His appointment was challenged by average citizens.
Second, by self-executing the meaning of this is not necessarily that by magic or preturnatural means that Donald Trump's name will no longer appear on the ballot. There may still be other legal process in each state to remove him, which is what we have seen. That does not, however, require CONVICTION for insurrection or espionage (as in your example), which is what the legal argument means by self-executing.
In the link below you can read the background regarding the very first case that was decided under the Section 3 of the 14th Ammendment, and how that decision was at best from a judge with an ulterior motive or compromised judgement where he knew he was not acting in the spirit or intention of the law. Every single piece of contemporaneous discussions about this Ammendment shows that it was well understood to be self-executing in the sense that it did not require prior conviction. No amount of revisionist history, or attempts to smuggle in doubt will change that.
https://www.dorfonlaw.org/2023/08/what-it-means-to-say-that-section-3-of.html?m=1
I suggest that you read up on it a little more. That article 3 is self-executing is not a controversial or extreme opinion and is well within the mainstream of legal scholarship. The SCOTUS may rule that it isn't, but that's going to be a tough nut to crack for its three conservative originalists since at its inception article 3 was clearly used to bar all former Confederate officers from holding federal office without the necessity of a trial and conviction.
I just want to add, sincerely, thank you for (mostly —your first sentence was entirely unnecessary) engaging with this in a serious and respectful manner. The other replies I received are the sort I might have expected on Reddit, but I've usually come to expect better on here (tankies defending Putin excluded). Just low effort, bad faith nonsense that either through deliberate malice or sheer stupidity, refuse to engage with the actual arguments I was making.
Yours was much better than that, so thank you.
Umm, no? It might have to rule if someone under 35 got themselves nominated and was about to be put on the ballots, but even that would probably not be necessary because someone's age—assuming there isn't a debate around what their birthday is—would be a notorious fact.
It wouldn't need to go to a trial court because there are no facts under dispute.
You don't need to get me started on the Supreme Court. America's court system has been fundamentally broken for decades. They have a long history of legislating from the bench and making rulings that—whether you agree with them morally or not—obviously do not follow from the text of the law they claim to interpret. All the 2nd amendment interpretations are probably the worst in terms of actual impact. This not helped by America's uniquely inept legislature, with both the worst election system in the democratic world, and the least-functional procedures for operating once people have been elected, which has made it so easy for the SCOTUS to get away with so much legislation. (And SCOTUS has, in turn, provided the legislature with excuses for not legislating things that should be legislated—like abortion rights.)
I don't think it's obvious at all. It's not an unreasonable argument to make, and if you go back to my original comment you'll see that I specifically made allowance for the historical precedent of it being used in this way. Indeed, as far as what outcome would have the best impact on your country, I think this would be great. Anything to keep Trump away from a second presidency.
My point was that it's very much not obvious, and that coming down on the side of not having politicians decide—rather than a jury, or a bench trial—seems more in keeping with the principle of rule of law.
This is clearly not the case. Donald Trump himself has disputed the natural born citizenship of Barack Obama, and he has done it for almost a decade. You are making an assumption, and taking for granted that someone's natural born citizenship or age is plainly obvious. The rule of law is only as valid as the system of jurisprudence that backs it up, and only remains broadly applicable as long as it is backed by the consent of the governed.
Therefore, the delegitimization of the judicial system and erosion of the law through slippery interpretations of the constitution that are in no way ambiguous either in language or spirit is the HALLMARK of conservative legal strategy. Conservatism is based on the fundamental principal that there are groups that the law protects but does not bind, and binds but does not protect. You are feeding into this dangerous ideology by suggesting these legal definitions are ambiguous, or that we do not have contemporaneous interpretation from the people who wrote & debated them.
I don't hate you for it, but I don't respect it either. You may not like my assertion that you are legally & historically illiterate. I can understand that, and I don't blame you for that either. Sometimes the truth hurts, but that doesn't mean you should insulate yourself from it. The honest, mature thing to do is to approach criticism from an objective, dispassionate position.
My criticism is that you are not willing to follow your arguments to their logical conclusions, and are engaging in reinforcing the dangerous practice of smuggling in ambiguity via "whataboutism" arguments that really only serve to strengthen the psychopathic modern crypto-fascist movement that is being lead by ivy league educated authoritarians who are abusing the cognitive dissonance of the uneducated working class that falls victim to their social control mechanisms.