this post was submitted on 21 Dec 2023
102 points (90.5% liked)

News

23284 readers
3488 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil


Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.


2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.


Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.


Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.


5. Only recent news is allowed.


Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.


6. All posts must be news articles.


No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.


7. No duplicate posts.


If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.


8. Misinformation is prohibited.


Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.


9. No link shorteners.


The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.


10. Don't copy entire article in your post body


For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

CNN reporting on some interesting survey results from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in Ramallah. Seven hundred and fifty adults were interviewed face to face in the West Bank, and 481 were interviewed in Gaza, also in person. The Gaza data collection was done during the recent truce, when it was safer for researchers to move about.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] RGB3x3@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago (3 children)

But why does Israel have a right to exist? It's not even 80 years old. That land was taken from the Palestinians, so it seems to me that the Palestinians have more right to the land than Israel does.

The answer to the conflict is definitely not genocide of either set of people and Hamas is certainly not going to stop their genocidal goals.

But no state has a "right" to exist, certainly not one that's less than 80 years old and which stole and is still stealing land from another group of people.

[–] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

You are asking a philosophical question, but the original justification for the creation of Israel is no longer satisfying with modern sensibilities.

  1. The Ottoman Empire fell after WW1, after siding with Germany and losing. Turkey was strong enough to establish an independent state, but the southern part of the Empire was weak and without effective government. As such, it fell under the Mandates of France and the UK.

  2. A Zionist movement had already formed in the late 19th century to basically reunite the Jewish diaspora in their long-ago historical homeland. After the Holocaust of WW2, the UN decided to create the State of Israel in Mandatory Palestine as a refuge for the Jews. The area was chosen for obvious historical reasons, though of course the Jews hadn't had a state in the area for a very, very long time.

Philosophically, this is unsatisfying because it is based on old ideas of Great Power politics, imperial colonialism, and religion. Now, before anyone jumps in and starts railing against European imperialism, let's remember that the Ottoman Empire was every bit as imperialist and prone to genocide as any other empire.

As philosophically unsatisfying as the reasoning behind the creation of the State of Israel seems today, Israel's existence is now a well-established a fact on the ground. Of course, a fact on the ground has to be defended from challengers, which Israel has successfully done many times now. It has also earned the support the United States and many others. Even among its former enemies in the region, Israel has earned respect and a desire for normalized relations.

Do the Palestinians have the right to armed resistance? Sure, war is always an option, but victory in war is not given. It has to be taken by force. Ultimately, the right to exist is based on your ability to defend yourself. The State of Israel may only be 80 years old, but it has proven itself capable of defending its territory.

Are the Palestinians capable of taking back and defending territory? No, they are engaged in insurgency and guerilla warfare. This is a fine tactic in certain circumstances, such as Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc., but it's ultimate success is predicated on wearing down the morale of an occupying force so that they will leave. It doesn't work when the "occupying force" is on their own soil. Sure, Israel can be brought to the negotiating table to withdraw from the occupied parts of Palestine, but they'll only do that in exchange for true guarantees of peace. Most of the world sees this as a necessary compromise, which is why Palestine remains as it is: occupied and awaiting final resolution. Palestinians have never accepted that they were beaten. Continuing with armed resistance is no doubt satisfying for many people, and a source of pride for Palestinians. Histories all over the world are full of stories about glorious resistance against impossible odds. However, it is also why tens of thousands of Palestinians are being killed right now.

[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The origin goes back to, no surprise, the British. Some politicians thought it would be good to grow their influence in the region, where they currently had none. Zionists wanted their own state there, and these politicians thought a growing Israeli population would give Britain more influence like they wanted.

The Zionist desire for a Jewish state is rather interesting, because there's arguably some similarities to Palestinians. There was a pogrom against Jews during the years of the Russian revolution, and it led a prominent Jewish thinker to opine that Jews would never see peace nor be respected unless they had their own state. The original desire was born from wanting to be free from discrimination and violence.

Unfortunately, there was a cultural "enlightenment" at the time as well, and this gave rise to an extremist Zionist way of thinking. They warped the original intent of wanting a Jewish state, and here we are today. Zionist groups would go on to commit terror attacks in Mandated Palestine.

Circling back, does Israel have a right to exist? I would say no -- but the Jewish people (completely separate from Israel) deserve to live in peace and with dignity. Just as the Palestinians deserve to live in peace and with dignity. And much like Zionist terrorists taking that pure desire and using it for their own ends, you have Hamas taking advantage of Palestinians and their anger.

It feels very hopeless at this point for the Israelis to recognize that Palestinians are like them, violently discriminated against in the past; and for Palestinians to recognize that Hamas is no better than the Zionist terrorists of the past.

[–] chitak166@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Great post that really highlights the nuances of the situation with a satisfying conclusion.

[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

I don't know if I'd get the conclusion satisfying necessarily. It's rather hopeless. And at the same time, it encompasses human history into a nutshell.

[–] blazeknave@lemmy.world -1 points 10 months ago

40 acres and a mule after millennia of genocide and slavery across Eurasia came to a crescendo in 1939. Thank the Brits and the West for the location and the borders. There were other options like an adjacent sister state to Liberia. The Jews didn't make the decision in which. The imperialist colonisers at the time did.. you know.. only the haves can give anything to the have nots, bc have nots cannot jut decide to have...

Worst case.. the West thought it was a disposable enough place to spare the expense and/or Western military outpost

Best case.. centuries of friendship and living together between Jews and Muslims sounded like a good place.. we did flee to the levant from European fascism, which would validate it sounded like a good idea at the time. (Unfortunately the Brits said there was no room and shipped the Jews back to Nazi Germany to die, but that's another story)

A right wing minority party is waging ethnic class war right now. This is a problem for EVERYONE on earth except that party. Also, a powerful terrorist organization with philosophies of genocide controls an apartheid state's pseudo sovereign government and commits terror acts on Israeli Jewish humans. Whether Bibi fed them or not, Likud aren't the ones suffering personally.