this post was submitted on 04 Dec 2023
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How did Lemmy World become the default instance? (mander.xyz)
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Masimatutu@mander.xyz to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml
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World was already the biggest by far when I first started lurking back in July, and it's just getting more dominant. Before, there was quite some diversity in the distribution of generic communities, but nowadays the vast majority of posts that reach the top are from over there.

I really can't see any specific virtue that it has; uptime is not the best (or so I've heard), the moderation is quite lacking (which is demonstrated by the fact that Beehaw defederated them), they make some unpopular moderation choices (like blocking !piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com), and overall the atmosphere is a lot less... nice than those of smaller instances.

I also feel like it goes against the idea of the Fediverse that one instance has control over most of the platform. Especially on Lemmy, where communities mean that building community within an instance makes so much more sense than elsewhere, and upvotes are federated near perfectly regardless the size of your instance, decentralisation makes a lot of sense. It really just doesn't make sense to me that Lemmy World is where people are going.

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[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

~~Then again you're talking about Beehaw, their users react so badly to anyone telling them they might be wrong that it's not surprising their mods need to spend a disproportionate amount of time taking action against other users.~~

~~They defederated from my instance (after refederating) after their users raided the two management communities and were told to fuck off and then played victims in the defederation post, I would take whatever they say with a huge grain of salt.~~

Forget that, was thinking about Hexbear!

[–] Masimatutu@mander.xyz 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I dunno though. Most trolls and bad actors that I have seen around here have indeed been from sh.itjust.works and Lemmy World.

Edit: Ah, that explains it. Beehaw is such a chill place, I could never imagine them doing such things.

[–] Blaze@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The are in the top 5 biggest instances (and programming.dev changed their own account of active users recently), so statistically that makes sense.

https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list

[–] Masimatutu@mander.xyz -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Together, they make up ~~a bit more~~ less than 50% of active users, yet basically all far-right trolls are from there. You could say it is more difficult to moderate big instances, but if you have more users to moderate, you should also increase moderating capacity or close registrations.

[–] Blaze@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

all far-right trolls are from there.

Interesting, my personal experience has been more spread, including a few very toxic users on lemme.ee.

[–] antik@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

We do not make up for 50% of the active users. Also we have plenty of moderators and admins, reports get handled pretty fast. It's up to the community moderators first but if it takes too long one of the admins will step in.

And we will never close registrations.

[–] Masimatutu@mander.xyz 0 points 1 year ago

We do not make up for 50% of the active users.

I remember it used to be higher, now it is approx. 41%. Only strengthens my point, though.

Alsof we have plenty of moderators and admins, reports get handled pretty fast.

I see different things. There are quite some trolls and abusive accounts that don't seem to get removed.

And we will never close registrations.

I'm just saying the moderation has to improve in some way.

[–] lvxferre@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Together, they make up a bit more than 50% of active users, yet basically all far-right trolls are from there.

That doesn't say much about LW besides being the biggest instance - because trolls beeline towards larger audiences.

but if you have more users to moderate, you should also increase moderating capacity or close registrations.

Closing registrations might be the sensible approach here. Because the necessary moderation grows exponentially, and eventually too large of a mod/admin team becomes a problem on its own.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I dont know why you're getting down voted, as a moderator basically all the "death to brown people" comments I have to delete are from that shithole and lemm.ee.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

~~https://sh.itjust.works/post/4279462~~

~~https://sh.itjust.works/post/4188546~~

~~https://sh.itjust.works/post/4281207~~

~~Their admin reaction~~

~~https://hexbear.net/post/504353~~

~~"Sh.itholefor.nazis" very mature...~~

Forget that, I always mix up Beehaw and Hexbear!

[–] inverted_deflector@startrek.website 1 points 1 year ago

Lol yeah I just migrated my account away from beehaw because they do plan on leaving eventually and it's kind of jarring how much more low effort posting there is now.

[–] lvxferre@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Then again you’re talking about Beehaw, their users react so badly to anyone telling them they might be wrong that it’s not surprising their mods need to spend a disproportionate amount of time taking action against other users.

I think that you're partially right.

The sort of online fight that Beehaw seeks to avoid depends on having at least one dumb fuck¹. Two cause it faster, but one is enough - because smart people have an easier time reaching agreement or realising that no agreement is possible.

Both sides (LW+SJW and Beehaw) have their shares of smart posters and dumb fucks². The later are there for different reasons:

  • LW+SJW absorbed the bulk of the Reddit diaspora, and Reddit culture revolves around being a dumb fuck;
  • Beehaw doesn't prevent you from being a dumb fuck, as long as you are not the one apparently starting the fight. Effectively sheltering dumb fucks who are really good at passive aggression, and who'll have a meltdown once you say "what you said is incorrect, here's why", as they'll interpret this as a personal attack.

If you're a smart user, you eventually learn how to handle the dumb fucks in your instance, in a way that is allowed there: chewing them out (within limits) or avoiding them like a plague. But those approaches break once you're handling someone from the other side:

  • smart Beehaw user interacting with LW+SJW dumb fuck: "I feel like I'm always swallowing frogs with those users, as they say stupid shit and I don't want to be rude."
  • smart LW+SJW interacting with Beehaw dumb fuck: insert here your first paragraph. It's why I think that you're partially right.

notes

  1. For the sake of this comment, I'm defining "dumb fuck" as someone who assumes too much, oversimplifies, disregards context, focuses too much on who says it instead of what is being said, lacks basic understanding of what other users say, or a mix of those.
  2. Note that, while it's useful to pretend that "dumb fuck" and "smart user" are different categories of people, they are not - those are different categories of user behaviour, i.e. the same person could be theoretically a dumb fuck in some situations and a smart user in another.
[–] inverted_deflector@startrek.website 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This isnt really true about beehaw though. Their mods actually have really good heads on their shoulders when it comes to policy and enforcement.

Their goal is to protect the general vibe of the place and their prime rule beyond of course not being a bigot is to "Be(e) Nice". Discussions are meant to be had in good faith and if someone is say spready hate speech and someone tells them to fuck off the mod will likely bad(and depending on what they said delete) the hater and probably do nothing to the person who told them to fuck off.

They will go after people who are arguing in bad faith, trolls, people who are being too aggro for no reason, and of course people getting into a fight who need to cool it.

Their more simplified ruleset is to combat what is often seen when you have the more reddit style strict rules. Where you wind up with users knowing just how to be a dickhead without actually breaking the rules and ruin the place. If a mod bans or deletes a post when the person isnt breaking a rule but stinking up the subreddit then the user causes drama towards the "abusive mod". So the mods then put in more and more rules until the subreddit becomes bland or hostile towards posters. In this example if someone posts hate speech and someone calmly just tells them to fuck off then both posters will have to be penalized for breaking rules.

The beehaw system allows for discretion. Ive also seen admins and mods on that site try and talk things out with posters who are causing a stink and giving them a good faith opportunity before showing them the door.

[–] lvxferre@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

We're talking about apples and oranges. Or rather, fruits and oranges. Contrast my note #1 with your comment:

[Me] For the sake of this comment, I’m defining “dumb fuck” as someone who assumes too much, oversimplifies, disregards context, focuses too much on who says it instead of what is being said, lacks basic understanding of what other users say, or a mix of those.

[You] people who are arguing in bad faith, trolls, people who are being too aggro for no reason, and of course people getting into a fight who need to cool it. [...] say spready hate speech [...] users knowing just how to be a dickhead without actually breaking the rules and ruin the place [...] if someone posts hate speech [...]

You're talking about intentionally socially disruptive behaviour; Beehaw does address it. However I'm talking about bad = non-contributive behaviour in general, regardless of "intentions" or "faith".