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most drag queens are sexually explicit and I'm tired of pretending they're not.
What? You realize public nudity is illegal right?
Depends on the jurisdiction. It's not a universal law. Even in my state:
https://www.oregonlive.com/entertainment/2015/06/public_nudity_in_oregon.html
All the major cities it's illegal though. But to my point, you said:
So you disagree with the ability for a state to make a law against public nudity?
Not my quote, different user. ;)
In Oregon it came to a head because of 2 cases, a topless roller skater in downtown Portland, and another dude, I don't remember the town, who was fond of going to his mailbox nude.
In both cases it was ruled that nudity is not necessarily sexual.
So every year, we get the World Naked Bike Ride:
https://www.travelportland.com/events/naked-bike-ride/
ah true my bad
Which drag shows are you going to, exactly?
There is a difference between burlesque shows and drag shows. There is some overlap in the venn diagram, but not all drag queens are sexually explicit.
The real question to ask, is if they are SOOOO concerned about sexual performances, why aren't they banning heteronormative burlesque performances?
Oh, right, because it's not actually about being sexually explicit.
Read the bill. It explicitly says "sexually oriented performance". And only in front of minors.
It specifically calls out drag shows. If you believe that all drag shows are inherently sexual, there wouldn't be a need to say:
"(B)AAa male performer exhibiting as a female, or a female performer exhibiting as a male, who uses clothing, makeup, or other similar physical markers and who sings, lip syncs, dances, or otherwise performs before an audience; and (2)AAappeals to the prurient interest in sex."
Maybe theres some confusion here. I don't think that every single drag show out there has sexual elements in it. I'm sure there are some people who can put together a show that is kid friendly enough. But there is a lot of inherent sexuality in drag, people know this but they pretend not to admit it when this conversation comes up. There's some pretty intentionally raunchy shit happening at some of them and a lot of drag queens did not appropriately reform their normal act to be suitable for kids. And i get why, because theres a fuckton of sexual stuff in drag shows. its in the culture.
Thus, if we actually look at the bill, it doesn't outlaw drag shows altogether. it outlaws sexually natured drag shows in front of children.
Laws must be viewed wholistically. You cannot simply examine the text as if it somehow came into being on its own and enforces itself as a perfectly neutral rule of nature. It is written and applied by humans. So, you must also look at the framers who wrote it and those who will apply it.
And if we do, we see that they mean all drag shows are sexual. You clearly do agree with this interpretation so I'm not sure why you're trying to deploy this smokescreen. They intend to use this as a ban on children being "exposed" to drag in any form, and it's hardly a stretch to argue it will be expanded to include trans people.
If you're not willing to engage with the honest reality, we're forced to assume you are a disingenuous propagandist and treat you accordingly.
Idk I think you have absorbed a bit too much of the narrative spin on it. You can read the bill here, it's VERY specific. https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/pdf/SB00012F.pdf#navpanes=0
I like how you completely ignored the premise of my criticism of only reading the exact text, and just referenced the exact text again. Incredibly naive view of government, but I can see I won't be able to change that today.
I understand your criticism but I don't think it's informed or accurate. I can see how you would believe it if you only got your news through tabloid headlines. The bill in no way outlaws drag queens or drag shows. If they believed that all drag shows were sexual why did they make specific considerations that allow for drag shows to still exist?
I don't think you do understand my criticism because you just again did the thing I'm criticizing. I'm saying the text of the law is not the whole picture because the real world application also matters and doesn't always perfectly reflect the literal text, and you just keep referring me back to the text of the law. I'm doing my damnedest to assume good intent from you but you are making it so hard. I don't think you'd be this deferential to government in most other situations.
I don't buy your criticism in this instance. This is what you originally said:
This is quite the statement with absolutely 0 to back it up. "Yeah I know it doesnt actually ban dragshows, but it actually just means they're going to eventually ban all of them and also ban trans people!" is not really a coherent. I think your view on the intent of this bill is poisoned by the main stream media which constantly insists that this is banning drag shows, when in reality it just been gratuitous sexuality when children are around.
No, you have confirmed that you do not in fact understand me. I'm not saying "eventually it will ban them all." I'm saying the people writing and enforcing the law believe that all drag shows are sexual and thus this right now effectively makes it illegal to perform drag in front of children, because that is how the law will be applied in reality.
You keep repeating that it only bans sexual performances in front of children, but are not arguing against the idea that they view all drag as sexual. I'm forced now to assume this is on purpose.
Fun fact: it is the majority opinion among conservatives that being trans is a fetish and therefore sexual as well. That is what will be the focus in the future.
If they view all drag as sexual why didn't they ban all drag?
They probably view most drag as sexual yeah. because it often is. but instead of banning drag entirely, they banned specifically sexual drag in front of children. That seems like the right thing to do in this circumstance.
If they view all drag as sexual performances, then banning sexual performances is effectively a ban on drag, with the added benefit that useful idiots will happily deploy smokescreens for you. This isn't complicated, you are simply engaging in willful ignorance. This is why I keep repeating that laws do not enforce themselves, but you have such a naive view of how government works that I don't think I can get through to you.
I would flip it around and say if you don't view drag as inherently sexual, then banning sexual drag wouldn't equate to banning all drag. The fact that you think this law is an issue demonstrates that not only do you view drag as sexual, but you think it's okay for children to consume. Those laws will be enforced if someone breaks them, and you can only break them if you do something sexual in front of children. I wish you would just be honest and say "I don't think sexual drag in front of children is an issue" and I would respect your point of view a lot more, even if I disagree.
Laws are enforced when the enforcer's perception is that the law has been broken, not when the law is actually broken. Laws do not enforce themselves, they are enforced by humans, and those humans have beliefs. For example, many believe all drag is sexual. This means that the law will be enforced as such. Do you understand? This is the last time I will attempt to get you to acknowledge this simple fact of reality before I give up and assume you are either too stupid to understand this, or do understand it and are simply lying.
I'm choosing to be very kind by letting your attempted pedojacketing of me slide, as long as you finally acknowledge this.
I don't accept your premise. I've said this numerous times. The bill clearly defines sexual conduct, it isn't going to be up to some individual thinking all drag is sexual, you have to actually violate one of the clearly laid out descriptions of what constitutes sexual nature.
Okay, let's go down that rabbit hole, if only to prove you are not actually principled on the matter. Tell me what is defined to be "sexual gesticulations", as referenced in section 43.28, subsection 1E. This should be easy to resolve if the boundaries of the law are as clearly defined as you keep saying it is.
You should post the full sentence. The fact that you are leaving it out suggests that you aren't being entirely honest with your arguments.
Using accessories or prosthetics. Basically don't mimic sex using props. Seems pretty straightforward.
That... doesn't answer my question at all, and I'm beginning to suspect you aren't good at paying attention.
That doesn't define what a "sexual gesticulation" is. It just defines that it is illegal when done with those prosthetics. So what is a sexual gesticulation?
It basically just means sexual gestures. You can look up what the word means. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
Oh, it basically just means this thing that isn't clearly defined. Oh, you can just look it up. Look it up where, exactly? What texts are legally admissible to define this? Is it dealer's choice? And where is the line drawn, because a gesture can be sexual in one context and not in another. If someone thinks all drag is sexual, would that not influence how they interpret such a gesture?
This is what I meant. You made a big deal about it being supposedly "clearly defined". When shown that a crucial part of the law isn't clearly defined, you don't actually care, because it never actually mattered to you if it was. So what was the point of all this? Why did you waste my time with this act?
You could hone in on any law and be as pedantic as you are being
This isn't pedantic. Have you even read the law that you keep demanding everybody else read? The law makes reference to a strict definition for the word "premises", but it's pedantic to expect one for "sexual gesticulation"? They did that on purpose.
It's very easy to admit being wrong about the law being clearly defined, that you just didn't think of every way it can be abused. However, I don't believe you actually care about it being clearly defined at all. That's why you're deflecting now and suddenly acting all disinterested. You've been caught and now you're defending your ego.
So I have to ask again; why the act? What was the purpose of all this? Simply be honest about your beliefs and stop with all this smokescreen nonsense. You don't have to act like a weasel if you just say what you really believe.
You're a bit crazy. I told you how I feel. If you don't like it then stop responding. I have been consistent the entire time.
So you're just done engaging with what I say and are now deflecting, got it. I was correct when I said that the clarity of the law was never important to you and wouldn't affect your support of it.
I already said I think you're being pedantic and you keep harping on the same thing over and over. I think the law is clear enough and I don't forsee anyone not doing inappropriate shit to be prosecuted under this law. You could apply the same criticism to literally any law. In the context of legislation, this bill is pretty clear what it prevents. If you disagree, fine, move on.
It's not pedantic to expect the law to hold the same standard to "sexual gesticulation" as it did to "premises", but it's clear you suddenly lost all that enthusiasm you had before to actually defend the law on its merits. I'm just sad that the conversation about the actual text of the law couldn't even make it further than the first question.
Have a good day.
You are unbearable lol. You posted a "gotcha" and I didn't bite so you stubbornly disregard anything I said in response. Have a good one, I hope you come up with some better arguments next time.
I'm actually curious, what did I stubbornly disregard? Because I can list things you stubbornly refused to engage with, but I'm not aware of any point of yours that I didn't respond to. If I did, I will happily do so now.