this post was submitted on 19 Jun 2023
55 points (100.0% liked)
World News
22056 readers
39 users here now
Breaking news from around the world.
News that is American but has an international facet may also be posted here.
Guidelines for submissions:
- Where possible, post the original source of information.
- If there is a paywall, you can use alternative sources or provide an archive.today, 12ft.io, etc. link in the body.
- Do not editorialize titles. Preserve the original title when possible; edits for clarity are fine.
- Do not post ragebait or shock stories. These will be removed.
- Do not post tabloid or blogspam stories. These will be removed.
- Social media should be a source of last resort.
These guidelines will be enforced on a know-it-when-I-see-it basis.
For US News, see the US News community.
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I dunno how many people would take issue with that, I think a fair number of people here would agree that America is an empire too for example
America's done some fucked up things in the last 20 years, don't get me wrong, but absolutely nothing comes even close to the horrors of the genocidal war of imperial expansion Putin's currently waging in Ukraine. There's absolutely no moral equivalency between the modern US and Putin's Russia.
I would definitely not go that far, but I also find that comparing atrocities like this is unproductive at best and in really bad taste at worst when it comes to most online discussions. The conversation should be about the terrible genocidal acts Russia is currently committing, not become a pissing contest of which major empire is the worst out of all the major empires. Especially when such contests belittle the victims of those empires. Russia needs to put an end to this cruel war and take part in some reasonable peace talks already.
Okay, here's why it upsets me so much when people call the US an "empire". There's a cold civil war in this country right now about who we're supposed to be. Should America be a multicultural, inclusive democracy trying to atone for the sins of the past and build a better, kinder future, or is it an imperialistic ethnostate built on white supremacy?
When people write America off as always having been the latter, and act like it's doomed to always be the latter, they're effectively giving up on the fight. They're basically saying they agree with the far right, their vision of the country is correct. Which gives them more power.
There's so much good here, mixed in with the bad. This country has made incredible progress towards becoming a more perfect union. Sure, there's still huge, glaring ways we fail to live up to that promise, still a huge amount of work to be done. But looking back at how far we've come, I really do believe we can make it.
But that's not going to happen if the far right smothers democracy in its crib right now. And so that's why I push back against people writing America off as an "empire": because it could easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I really don't want to live in that world.
America has been an empire. It is an empire. That fact does not change just because the far right want to destroy this country and turn it into a fascist theocracy. That is entirely separate from how much "good" or "bad" the country can theoretically do, the two are entirely unrelated. You are trying to determine if a piranha is a fish by seeing if it can play free form jazz. There is no connection between something being an empire and something having the potential to be better down the road.
This country was built off of a genocide of Native Americans and then literally built off the backs of enslaved Africans treated worse than animals in lifelong captivity. For hundreds of years. Any discomfort you get from recognizing the US is an empire is a good starting point to grappling with this truth: America is an empire, it did and STILL does terrible things to maintain that status, and it's not any more special than any other empire with a similarly awful history just because of some notion of American exceptionalism. Recognizing this stuff is honestly step 1, probably even step 0, to putting this country on the right path that you and me are hoping for!!
Right now you are doing the equivalent of when someone asks "What's with all this talk about racism lately? If we all just stopped talking about it and worrying about it, racism will disappear!" A fact does not go away just because we are uncomfortable with confronting it. The US WAS built on white supremacist genocide. It CAN get better. These two statements are not incompatible. What IS incompatible is wishing for it to get better while whitewashing and softening what has made it awful so far while saying people who have harsh criticisms of this country are basically playing the useful idiot for fascists. You would not afford this 'nuance' and sympathy for any other nation with America's history.
Only one side of the political spectrum recognizes this country as an unfortunately successful genocidal imperial state, and it is DEFINITELY not the right wing. In fact, they (right wingers) are the only ones trying to downplay and soften the state's past atrocities while claiming people who point out said atrocities are 'CRT-brainwashed liberal pinkos' that are bringing this country down. I kindly, strongly urge you to seriously think about what I've said in this discussion, as I think it's clear you are not some bad guy that wants to wish away America's horrors, but I think you are accidentally becoming the same useful fool for the right wing that you worry about. Best case scenario, you still come off as whitewashing imperialist empires, just only when it's from a country you favor.
Anyways, I don't think I have anything else to add in this discussion and I'm not really interested in a lengthier discussion on whether the US is an empire or not, so I'm dipping out here. Hope you have a good day!
Absolutely, America has done some fucked up things in the last 100 or so years, but there's no way to justify one crime with another which is what some posters here on Lemmy often appear to suggest. I feel such attempts to portray moral equivalency is another insult to the victims of these horrors.
I've seen a few commenters back on Reddit argue that it's unfair to focus on Russian war crimes when Ukrainian soldiers have also committed war crimes. The whataboutism that some people use to defend these empires are truly mind boggling sometimes.
Exactly. America has done some truly horrific stuff in the not-so-distant past, and there's no moral equivalency between the modern US and Russia. None. Both statements can be true at the same time.
Yeah and america does still have colonies like Puerto Rico where people are citizens thanks to an act of congress but dont vote for president, and we have colonies with american nationals that arent citizens like American Samoa. Thats not even going into all the military bases we have around the world and the way we infiltrate other countries with our corporate interests.
Puerto Rico, American Samoa, and all the other territories can vote to apply for statehood or leave at any time they want. They stay territories because, as of the most recent referendums held in those places, the majority of the population are happy with the status quo. (From what I understand, they get tax breaks and exemptions from certain federal laws as territories which they'd have to give up as states. I don't get it either, but it's what they've chosen so far.)
Yes, we have military bases all over the world-- at the invitation of the host countries, which can kick us out any time they want to. They chose not to, not because they're being puppeted by evil Amerikkka, but because they genuinely want the troops there-- much cheaper to have America pick up the tab for your nation's defense than to have to build out your own armed forces yourself.
What do you mean by "infiltrate other countries with our corporate interest"? Multinational corporations running amok and exploiting vulnerable people for their own gain isn't a uniquely American phenomenon, it's a problem with corporations based in countries all over the world. And the current faction in charge of the US is at least trying to reign them in.