Please explain to me the logic of EU sabotaging its own economy in response to the war in Ukraine. The sanctions have had pretty much no effect on Russia. In Particular, Russia is making record profit from energy sales right now.

The only country that benefits from Eurozone collapsing economically is the US. Much of European industry is already moving to US, there's a capital flight from Europe to US, and Europe is now dependent on expensive LNG coming from US. The only thing this fiasco achieved was to turn Europe into a vassal state of the US.

[+] varjolintu@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Tanking European economy and condemning millions of people to horrific conditions this winter does absolutely nothing to help Ukraine. Russia is making record profits from energy exports today.

The rise in energy prices more than made up for any lost sales to Europe. Also, Russia is still exporting lots of gas to Europe via China, India, and Saudi Arabia. The only difference is that these countries now charge Europe a markup.

Also, Russia has pipelines to China and building more pipelines as we speak.

You have absolutely no clue regarding the subject you're attempting to debate.

[+] varjolintu@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The help for Ukraine comes in different forms. Seems you didn’t read the sources. Russia may be making some money right now because of the high energy prices, but that is not going to last.

It quite obviously will. China's industry is growing along with BRI. All the industry that's moving out of Europe will go to Asia and use Russian gas. Again, this isn't rocket science and it's amazing that people don't get this. The articles you linked are written for gullible people who don't understand how economy or energy markets work globally.

Also the energy sector is not the only things that is affected by the sanctions. A lot more industries and companies have left the country. What makes things harder to measure, is the lack of valid statistics from Russia itself.

Literally zero evidence for the claim that western industry leaving Russia has any negative impact. All it does is create room domestic industry and companies from friendly countries like China and India. If sanctions failed to produce any effect initially, it's obvious they will only have less effect going forward.

Ah. The usual personal signature at the end. Please tell me how those stats and sources are invalid, and provide better ones instead of insults.

Hope you now have a better understanding of the errors in your sources.

[+] varjolintu@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What part of Russia is building new pipelines to China are you struggling with?

Ph.D. of energy geopolitics and markets, university professor… all citing their sources. What kind of source do you accept as valid if these are not enough? Please, provide them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

The effects are here already. It’s absurd to think China and India can replace Europe on the amount of exports. Is there any proof for your claims? I have seen only words.

LMAO pretty telling how all the numbers are from May, weird how it fails to mention that inflation has been dropping rapidly in Russia, and prices for necessities have been falling

This is precisely my point regarding sanctions. They create an initial shock and then the economy adjusts. There is no instance I'm aware of where western sanctions led to regime change that I'm aware of. Venezuela, DPRK, and Iran are all small countries managing to cope with western sanctions. It's absolute idiocy to think Russia would not.

Meanwhile, what really matters is the relative economic shock to Russia and the west. Right now the economy in the west is doing far war than in Russia. The obvious reason being that Russia is secure for food, energy, and manufacturing while the west is not.

[+] varjolintu@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago (32 children)

What part of this are you struggling with? Those numbers are small compared to the exports what went to Europe. And it doesn’t say anything about the possible cost of the project, or how the future sanctions might affect it. The previous links had good calculations for these, and I have repeated them a few times.

Proposed pipelines are meant to move similar numbers that were going to Europe. The cost of the project is obviously worth it for both Russia and China given that they're currently doing this project. Have no idea what western sanctions have to do with any of that. If you think that Russia and China aren't capable of building pipelines on their own you're delusional.

Yes, this is what you are doing. Of course I rely on experts because I’m not an expert. The same applies to you. I provided sources for my claims, you did not. It’s that simple.

Literally the opposite of what I'm doing. I've explained to you the actual mechanics behind the situation.

If you think this is correct, how do you think the economy adjusts to the empiness that was left when all western companies disappeared, brain drain is happening etc.?

Zero evidence to support your assertions about any brain drain happening. Meanwhile, Russia will obviously be in a better place with domestic industry that circulates back into its own economy.

The whole situation takes some time before the actual effects are shown.

Weirdly it's not taking time for the effects to show in Europe. Wonder what things will look like by spring.

As I said before, it makes things harder to analyze because many official economic statistics are no longer published. You’ll have to rely on what Russia gives (which might be false data) or estimations.

No evidence to support the assertion that Russia gives false data and estimations.

As you said yourself, the economy adjusts.

Economy adjusts when you have things like food and energy secured. Europe does not, and the adjustment will be to starvation and deindustrialization.

The current situation doesn’t count of couse because we are in the middle of it. The manufacturing has already taken a big hit. Why else is Russia trying to get goods from other countries if they are so self-sufficient?

Please name what essential goods Russia is trying to get from other countries. Also, please name what goods Russia actually has trouble sourcing.

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1575772450797019136 Sure, food can be found. What about money? Normal people cannot even afford flying out the country.

The fact that you use this as a source explains a lot about your views on the subject.

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[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (2 children)

So, you believe we're not stupid enough to crash our economy on our own, but are stupid enough to let the US convince us?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I believe that without pressure from US, Europe would've made better choices.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Although EU is so deep in US ass that it's performing haruspice on US entrails to guess the wishes of its master even without direct orders, but not even such toadies would betray their countries like this without some strong pressure.