this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
537 points (97.4% liked)

World News

38970 readers
2806 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News !news@lemmy.world

Politics !politics@lemmy.world

World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Pupils will be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women, in France's state-run schools, the education minister has said.

The rule will be applied as soon as the new school year starts on 4 September.

France has a strict ban on religious signs in state schools and government buildings, arguing that they violate secular laws.

Wearing a headscarf has been banned since 2004 in state-run schools.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] arc@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Laicite has been a thing for a very long time. Simply put, France recognizes your right to believe any crap you like in your private life and recognizes religions under law, but people don't get to practice their religion in the public sphere, e.g. on state property.

This is as opposed to US secularism which is barely lip service and constantly undermined. If you want an analogue, France erects a steel barrier between religion and governance whereas US erects a 4ft chain link fence.

[–] SulaymanF@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What a narrow understanding of religion. That law is based on the understanding that “religion” is something completely inside the mind and maybe something you attend once a week. That may have been nice in 1700s Europe when the only religion around were denominations of Christianity but it doesn’t account for the many religions that mandate looks and dress and even some that require tattoos. Instead the state implicitly labels those religions as inferior or less civilized and goes out of their way to single them out for law enforcement.

And the “obey or leave” mindset in this thread is ignorant of history, as France involuntarily made all Algerians French citizens and declared their lands French territory. This 2004 law and new amendments singles them out.

[–] arc@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Laicite has been a thing in France for over a 100 years. There is nothing "narrow" about it and it affected religions LONG before Muslims became the latest to experience it.

[–] SulaymanF@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Laicite was created after Christians went to war against Christians. It still is trapped in that paradigm and is narrow because it fails to take into account the practices of other religions. For example, Christianity has almost no dietary laws but that’s not the case for Jews, Hindus, or Muslims. Should French schools require beef on the menu to avoid religious accommodation for Hindus? Should circumcision be banned in order to prevent Jewish boys from standing out in locker rooms?

Laicite is a narrow and antiquated mindset and there’s a reason other secular countries haven’t embraced it.

[–] arc@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm pretty certain you know these are stupid arguments.

[–] SulaymanF@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m not going to respond to ad hominem attacks. Peace.

[–] arc@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Calling your arguments stupid is not ad hominem. But if you want me to elucidate then by all means:

  1. Forcing people to eat beef (or pork) is not covered by laicite. Wearing religious clothing & symbols on state property is. I'm sure a case to be made that schools should be sensitive to religious dietary restrictions and provide alternatives, but that's not what you were saying.

  2. Circumcision is not covered by laicite at least insofar as school is concerned. Maybe there are regs about how it is performed in public hospitals. Wearing religious clothing & symbols on state property is.

All clear now?

[–] generalpotato@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Yeah, let’s ban garments because garments can be attributed to religion or fashion or culture or comfort or any or all combination of the above, in public spaces and alienate religious groups, let them homeschool their children, which may/may not breed more dogmatic/extremists views and then cry about immigrants screwing things up by not integrating just because setting up laws that separate religion and state weren’t enough. Laws can’t be enforced right? Like laws don’t discourage behaviors in a secular civil society right?

Genius moves there. I like the 5D chess this government is playing.

[–] arc@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Homeschooling is a thing in every country. I don't see how you can claim laicite is the cause of it, or even increases the risk of extremism.