this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
151 points (80.1% liked)
Asklemmy
43945 readers
716 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Interesting. Can you provide some documentation on the Naassenes and their belief that we are in a 'non-physical recreation of an earlier world'? I did some brief research just now but couldn't locate this.
The Naassenes are documented in Hippolytus's Refutations volume 5, and one of their primary religious texts was the Gospel of Thomas.
Before digging into those texts themselves, it's also important to know the philosophical context in which they arise, specifically the debate between Epicurean material naturalism and Plato's theory of forms vs images.
The TLDR on the background is that the Epicureans rejected intelligent design and claimed life evolved through natural processes, and Plato claimed there was a spiritual perfect form with a lesser physical incarnation (and then there could be images of physical things like an artist illustrating a physical bed that was modeled from the spiritual form of a bed in Republic book X).
You see this topic discussed early on in Christian circles in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, which touched on certain ideas later found among the Naassenes like the dual Adams:
So starting with the Gospel of Thomas, you have:
Later on, in describing its creator figure, it expounds:
There's an additional indicator in Thomas is here:
The challenge with discerning the earlier ideas of the Naassenes in Pseudo-Hippolytus is twofold - one, it is written by the opposition, and two, this is after Gnostic circles were heavily influenced by Neoplatonism which flipped the script back from "physical first then spiritual" (as Paul cited) to Plato's spiritual first then physical (which belies the earlier use of images in Thomas as Plato's images only followed physical incarnation and it was form that preceded the physical - a term absent in Thomas).
Yet still you have indications breaking through in Refutations for the Naassenes:
Looked at through the lens of canonical Christianity, these ideas say one thing, but through the lens of Thomas (the group in question is the only one explicitly said to have been following it) the interpretation is wildly different.
In Thomas, the cosmos is already a dead body (like Leucretius's claims the cosmos was like a body that would one day die). The rest for the dead and the world to come has already happened but we don't realize it. The images around us are its creator's light, a creator that was eventually established in light and took on earlier images. Adam (which can be translated as humanity) came from great wealth but is now dead, and we are allegedly the children of its eventual creator of light (which in Pseudo-Hippolytus is clearly described as having been brought forth by an original Primal Man/humanity).
Also important is that contrary to the canonical interpretation of being born again, in Thomas being born again is literally being born as babes, with "a hand in place of a hand" and "an image in place of an image."
The key component here is the foundation of Epicurean naturalism. That's very present in Thomas, which entertained naturalism as the origin of the soul (saying 29) but lamented and rejected the Epicurean claims of the soul's dependence on the body (saying 87), appealing to an eventual demiurge in line with Plato's ideas as recreating the images of what came before in its light.
By the 4th century when Pseudo-Hippolytus is recording the beliefs, Epicureanism has fallen from favor in the rise of Neoplatonism which muddies the waters a fair bit, and yet you still have repeated claims of its audience actually being spiritual as well as the quite radical idea that its creator was brought forth by an earlier 'man.'
An important context for why these beliefs might have been deemed necessary can be seen in Against Heresies book 2 chapter 14 discussing 'Gnostic' beliefs in the 2nd century in general:
If there are limits on divine powers such that what is mortal cannot be immortal, then immortality can only be achieved by being born immortal. Hence the development of beliefs of a second birth from mortal form to immortal. Which in Thomas differs from canonical tradition in that it is not a symbolic ritual but literal birth as a babe, much as its Eucharist is not of consuming a physical body but in consuming the words left behind (saying 108).
If you are interested in this topic, I can't recommend enough reading through De Rerum Natura first. The Naassenes explicitly describe the origin of the world as owed to indivisible points called seeds, language that is uniquely from Leucretius who writing in Latin used 'seed' in place of the Greek atomos. To say nothing for the close parallels between Thomas and the work regarding cosmos as dead bodies or referring to seed falling by the wayside of the path (in Leucretius describing failed biological reproduction and in Thomas describing what survived to reproduce as what multiples following a saying about how the human being is like a big fish selected from smaller ones).