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[META] What sort of recurrent discussion threads would you like to see here?
(self.mensliberation)
this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2023
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Men's Liberation
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- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
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...what have you been reading/consuming?
I’ve only now watched a few videos of oliSUNvia (I hope I spelled that right) - especially her popular video about how love is portrayed felt quite accurate to me. That the focus is usually that you are getting love and not how it is also a very active practice.
Then I am still debating on what Bell Hooks Book I wanna give a spin.
I also watched Arrival again. And thought about how it could be seen as a stoicist take on life that we have to embrace potential hurt and tragedy and be open for the unknown to blossom.
Those would be my takeaways from August. How about you and thanks for asking :)
Hey! I'm currently reading The Will to Change. It's a short book, but deep. It addresses literally every issue everybody who talks about masculinity has ever mentioned. And, most importantly, it has me reconsidering a few things in my life.
Wait, which Arrival? The one about aliens is my favorite movie. But I don't think I've seen the other one before. Similarly, I have no idea who oliSUNvia is.
As for me, I'm processing The Will to Change and reconsidering my stance to masculinity. It's an interesting ongoing personal conversation.
Well I’ll go for that book then and might come back to you when I have read it! Sounds amazing that is has that effect on you - I’ve heard a lot of good stuff about Bell Hooks so it’s nice to get further confirmation :)
Yes Arrival with the aliens from Dennis Villeneuve ( god I’m bad at speeeelling and rememberkng names)
https://youtu.be/jcbEiZQ9B7o?si=Av-A4JNSkrWhoK-Q This was the video I watched from her. I’ve watched a lot of essayist going for an hour so I also liked her keeping it to half an hour :D
What’s the thing that has been most affected of your stance on masculinity by her book would you say?
Finally home to answer this!
Swoon. I love that movie. It really demonstrates the social construction of meaning at the end. As for your take away, I'd never thought out of it in those terms. What about that movie led you to that conclusion?
Oh boy. I'll try to keep this short. As a married man, it's not an understatement to say that I feel attacked when bell hooks criticizes patriarchal values for engendering compartmentalization. Somehow, I love my wife while hiding my feelings from her in many cases. And I hide them because....I'm supposed to be a man? I can't express myself because of my position as a husband? bell hooks reveals this is patently absurd patriarchal thinking.
But it's not like I've kept a stone wall for a face forever. I have become angry enough to express myself in the past. And lo and behold! I'm rejected?! That's not how it's supposed to go when a man, as I am, reveals his feelings to his loving wife. bell hooks helped me realize that we're both caught up in patriarchal thinking. Women rejecting men's feelings, especially the feelings of men their close to, is just as toxically patriarchal as men rejecting their own feelings.
I guess I didn't really answer your question exactly, but that's definitely the most salient way her book as affected me.
Uh yes the social construction of meaning yes I totally see that view yes. Especially the sapir-whorf hypothesis as well with how you speak/what language you speak influences the way we can only make sense of our reality for sure!
I think my interpretation came from the last few frames of Amy Adams really embraving her relationship with her future husband while prior learning that they were going to split up eventually but still embracing all the good that would be coming her way even though it is intermingled with grief and loss and frustration. To me (but I guess I just love being a tragic person? :D) that speaks to her opening up to life, to a message of: we have to be open for all to have a full life. Especially with the prior framing of Amy in her house being very calm, disconnected and uninterested in anything really. But I would say it's only one perspective on the film, next time I rewatch it, I'll think about your perspective more :)
--
I do think you answered the question quite well. I think yours is a perfect example how supposedly privileged men can struggle/suffer in a patriachial system and how we all have so many thing to relearn.
Being in touch with my emotions has been a neverending experience for me as well, as well as articulating and sharing them with loved ones. I do hope your experience is getting better in that regard and that your wife sees how her rejection of your emotions is hurtful for you. Conversely, maybe when you find ways to express less extreme emotions you both have the opportunity to practice for the when the bigger emotions eventually come around again to be more aligned and feel more heard and validated by your partner.
Start of this year I really had to grow and get better at telling people how I felt cuz I was rather depressive and it was really tough communicating in what ways I felt low and how I felt like my control was slipping away from me. For me it was sometimes easier to think of my emotions like a picture I describe to someone else. My typical example of how I experience fear for example is this feeling of bitter cold in my gut and this horrible silence that is giving me the acute sense of: we cannot think right now, because any second now your life will become a total desaster and I just freeze up and cannot think/feel/do anything else.
You are making my days btw with these responses, it feels really nice to write with you. And now that I know you love Arrival, what are other movies that you really liked? :3
You should read the short story that Arrival was based on. The book is called Stories of your Life, the Arrival story being "Story of Your Life". Honestly, I almost cried, it was so beautiful. And I think your interpretation of the movie fits much, much better with the original version. I'm gonna read it again now.
I still have a hard time communicating my needs. I can express my less extreme ones, but they still rile her up. Idk, it's definitely a work in progress. And I can definitely relate to the difficulty of growing emotionally.
Also, I watched the video you linked, and really liked it. It was like a long form take down of r/relationships.
I'm enjoying them, too!
As for movies...uhh...idk. I don't usually watch movies unless I'm super bored. I can't remember having watched anything worthwhile in a bit. How about you?
You are right I should totally read it. I recently listened/read "This is how you lose the time wars" and also greatly enjoyed it. I think in the past I consumed short stories way more often and always greatly enjoyed the experience.
Oh I am so happy you also liked the video! Yeah it felt like such a good takedown of it. I remember when I started being interested in relationship advice and I always felt that r/relationship(advice) was always hella toxic :D I really liked the polyamourous folk on reddit though. They were usually heavily centred on trying to communicate and accomodate the needs of our partner. Which - I'm still monogamous - felt like how I want to engage with my relationships. There have been some distinct moments for me where I was assuming how my partner wanted stuff or what I should want and it's usually been a pretty stupid experience to realise it's just not what I/they wanted. AND I think relationships change so much over time. Like we just become different people/versions of ourselves and it is constant work to stay aligned and in sync with your partner. Sure there are moments where it just works and you can read their mind but I think it's healthy to acknowledge that that's not always the case :X
Honestly - I only saw Everything Everywhere all at once last year and totally loved it, otherwise I was more focused on series I would say. I really liked Severance and Silo, but I'm a huuuuuuuuuge sucker for SciFi especially when the social commentary is really being explored.
Besides that I've been mostly just randomly watchng youtube videos and played some games. I'm starting my last master's year in 2 weeks so I've been looking forward and dreading it at the same time xD I feel like I've been studying for sooo many years now (part-time mostly) that I shouldn't feel such tumultous emotions, but yeah my body disagrees xD
What are you doing on your end that you don't end up super bored? :)
I like your take on relationships. It is definitely work to maintain a relationship. God damn. And sometimes trivial stuff to you is super important to them, and no one knows why—okay, I'm just complaining. But I definitely agree. I also found the BDSM community (though I'm very vanilla) very focused on communication. That's funny, though, right? These "deviant" communities model better approaches to communication than mainstream models.
Oh, hey, more that we have in common lol. I love sci-fi.
This must be a joke. I'm currently in my last master's year. I'm doing an MBA. Never really wanted one but my job is paying for it so...why not? PLus, I enjoy studying. When I was younger, I failed out of college, and somehow convinced myself that studying is kinda fun. That way, when I went back, I'd kill it. And I did.
What's your master's for? In any case, if you've got this far, you've probably overcome most of the really, really hard parts, right?
I don't even know now. I can say that I spend a lot of time playing Dota 2 (god I hate that game...I'm gonna play a match in half an hour lol). I also have this weird obsession with trying to breakdown right-wing arguments entirely for my own benefit. Otherwise, it feels like time passes by so quickly that I don't do much of anything before something else is due. You know?
Haha but yeah I totally get that :D Some things I basically only do for my partner cuz they are so incredibly important to them, but I would never do them. One of those things is that when I was outside using public transport I always change my clothes at home lest I bring the germs onto our furniture (I dunno if that is remotely how it works) but I've grown kind of accustomed to it - when he's not at home for a while I immediately stop doing it though xD
I recently also watched something by the Gottman Institute. https://youtu.be/AKTyPgwfPgg?si=O3X3vrNUIlVFx27M The way I understand it he's a researcher on relationships with another researcher and they really study how relationships work in being positive experiences for both. He also very clearly argues that communication WITH and responding positively to your partner are key factors. I honestly didn't have many relationships before my currently longterm one so I'm usually always looking for other perspectives on how to feel/understand our topics in the relationship. How long has your rleationship been going on for now?
And yes I always think that's funny how fringe groups are sometimes so knowledgeable about certain topics. On the other hand I know it from my outing and living as a gay man. Like you were so forced to be confronted with your own desires being "deviant" from normal issues that you are so forced to do a deep dive into the thematic and really explore it, understand it and sometimes subvert it outright. And yes the way I remember it I also felt comfortable in BDSM places of communication but found polyamourous a bit more approachble :D
WELLLLLL those are a lot of overlaps between us :D I'm doing an MSc in Psychology, it should be alright honestly, like I know it's gotta be manageable and I performed well in the years before, I'm just a bit anxious in general I would say xD So the wait for it is harder for me >.< In the last year I can mostly do stuff to specialise which is going to be male socialisation and men mental health issues and stuff. So I'm quite hopeful I'll do alright :D What's your master in? :) And I think it's cool that you gave it another shot. I honestly think studying is fun, as is any kind of learning that resonates with you. And you do strike me as a curious person :) I can totally see how in some parts of our life studying just doesn't fit.
And I play League of Legends xD Two peas in a pod for real :D They recently took away the game mode I REALLY enjoyed playing with a friend so it feels like a chore currently, I totally feel you there. Dota 2 felt a bit to complx for me when I played it for a while AGES ago :D