this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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Apparently there's an issue with some instances banning users for criticizing authoritarian governments. Is lemmy.world a safe place to criticize governments?

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[โ€“] FlaxPicker@lemmy.world 182 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

i mean lemmy.world server is in germany, but the guy who runs it is dutch so probably has a pretty open policy with freedom of speech i would imagine. And i mean real freedom of speech not the dog whistle for being a dick/racist/phobe

[โ€“] phillycodehound@lemmy.world 78 points 1 year ago

As one of the Admins of Lemmy.World we're pretty open but if you're a dick and unnecessarily a troll we'll kick ya.

[โ€“] Andonome@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I still feel like I need a new term for this. Yet another word co-opted by idiots.

[โ€“] gabowo@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Freedom of speech with consequences?

[โ€“] Andonome@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nah. I want to defederate from people sharing racial slurs, because I cba with them. If they don't consider that a 'consequence' then I don't really care.

I definitely don't want consequences for people sharing negative opinions about governments.

So I guess I just want freedom of speech + personal curation.

[โ€“] edgerunneralexis@dataterm.digital 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think the crucial thing that's missing from traditional social media is actual freedom of association, and I think thats the underlying thing that causes all these issues around "free speech." Freedom of association is the natural counterbalancing mechanism for "freedom of speech" in any form, and without the former the latter must either become incredibly toxic and damaging or be suppressed.

One of the interesting things we've lost (up till now) compared to physical, offline communities is that if someone was being a never-ending dick or a sealion, the rest of the community could just start naturally avoiding them and not inviting them of their own individual accord, and over time that would lead to the person being excised from the group โ€” unless there was a reasonably sized contingent of the group that disagreed with that, at which point the two groups would just split, all without totally banishing anyone.

Or you could yourself choose to leave the group and find another one, if they consistently refused to deal with or helped bad actors, while still maintaining access and contact with some people from that group, and the common social setting and contacts you and the group exist in.

In other words, you'd have a natural, gradiated, and horizontal system of social self-policing that could take care of these kinds of things in a distributed manner. There's a natural outlet besides just trying to shut someone down entirely by removing their access to any community in the area at all or trying to shout over them.

These mechanisms are very hard to implement on centralized social media because it is essentially one gigantic social group that you are either fully a part of or fully separated from. Thus any decisions made about who is and isn't part of this social group are made unilaterally for everyone, and there is no room for diversity in norms and expected behavior, because everything is technically this one giant group, so there has to be this centralized compromise set of one size fits all rules. And because of the unilateral and centralized nature of everything, you need a unilateral and centralized decisionmaking procedure, which in practice and up just being faceless top-down moderation either descending to band someone or ignoring people's pleas.

So it ends up being very difficult for social media communities to self-police in a coherent way, because the platforms operate at two coarse-grained a resolution to see those communities, and it's difficult for people to disengage from toxic stuff they don't want to interact with.

This has created all of the problems we see with speech on social media now, where people who want to be dickheads perceive themselves as being oppressed, victims of authoritarian censorship, because community policing has to come centrally from above, instead of happening naturally and horizontally by a bunch of people either telling someone to leave or leaving themselves; meanwhile people who just want to live in peace and share their joy and interests online find themselves with a very little recourse to reliably avoid such dickheads and find places that feel right for them.

Reddit has this problem to less of a degree because it lets you create different smaller subunities of the social network that all have different moderators and different rules, but it's imperfect.

I think the solution to this is partly decentralization and federation, because they allow people to naturally associate and disassociate with one another on a very individual level that more naturally mirrors how communities and social groups work in real life. Communities can form their own rules, norms, and cultures, and push people out in a meanongful way without having to totally banish them from the entire social world, and people can also naturally move between them until they find one that aligns with what they need and their values, with the right degree of openness and closedness to the rest of the Fediverse, without losing contact with everything else and thus avoiding network effects and isolation effects. The fact that instances can de-federate or mute other instances creates this really interesting ability to partially fragment the network without fully fragmenting it so that you can get truly different experiences on different instances.

[โ€“] Lols@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

you continue to use freedom of speech and dont give them the satisfaction of coopting it

[โ€“] EndOfLine@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Doesn't Germany have laws against certain hate speech? Would those laws apply to lemmy.world and it's hosted content?

[โ€“] chillhelm@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago

[IANAL] In Germany only specific types of hate speech are criminal. These are:

  • Use of Nazi symbols and slogans for other than artistic or educational purposes (things like the Swastika, the SS logo, or the Nazi salute, but not more modern versions like the "white power" guesture and similar)
  • Direct calls for violence against groups or individuals
  • Denying that the Holocaust happened or trivializing it's extend

Other forms of hate speech might be cause for civil suits or may oblige the platform provider to remove your speech, but do not rise to a criminal offence.

Again: I am not a lawyer.