Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
- No low effort comments
- No personal attacks
Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
!feminism@beehaw.org
!askmen@lemmy.world
!mensmentalhealth@lemmy.world
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I'm going to scratch a pet peeve here, but I feel that a lot of the issues come down to what is essentially bad marketing.
Using the term 'feminist' to describe pushing for gender equality and an end to gender based discrimination (and according to certain schools of thought men can't even be feminist but can only attain the lesser rank of "ally").
Using the term 'masculinist' to mean, not pushing for gender equality and an end to gender based discrimination but rather as a synonyme for misogynist.
Using the term 'toxic masculinity' which has been applied to toxic behaviors by people of all genders.
Using the term 'patriarchy' to define the old gender normes that hurt every one, men, women and other genders alike.
If we want to reach the young buys today we have to stop (even subconsciously) gender shaming them but rather showing them what it really means to be a man in 2023: A man who is present at home and at work, who shares in running the house and taking care of the children (not just "educating" them when their older, which is an outdated and frankly toxic trend), showing them also how to be vulnerable. A man who supports his partner, respects his/her boundaries but also makes sure his own boundaries are respected. A man who stands up for what he believes is right.
In short we need to give positive examples and role models.
If we don't show them a path to what they can become, and how they can grow and flourish, they will be easy pickings to people who lure them in with false promises of simple solutions.
I'm going to let my gender abolitionist roots shine through a little here and say that I do wish there were more gender neutral terms. That said I think it is a hard sell to abandon terms like feminist and patriarchy even as women's rights are actively being encroached upon in my country. I understand this may be a relatively America-centric view but so far as I am aware this is a US/Canada-centric community. Regardless the rise of right wing extremism is certainly a global phenomena. I am curious what you think of this article (thread here) and it's recommendations on term usage. I also noticed from your post history that you are French. Would you mind speaking a little bit to the differences you see in English vs French speaking spaces? Particularly, I am curious about the term masculinist as it is not a term I have heard before.
Thanks for your reply.
I can totally see that asking women to abandon feminist terminology in light of the overturning of roe vs wade and other setbacks is a tall ask, even if I feel that more gender neutral phrasings might help bridge the devide (that said they might also just encourage the people pushing these attacks through). I should also state that it's not up to me to tell anyone what to call things, my reaction is my own and they certainly don't owe me anything.
Thank you for the article. It's a really interesting read, and I agree with what is written regarding toxic masculinity as it pertains to men's behaviours. I find it also interesting that one of the reasons the author didn't like the term was that they thought that it would distract from other gender imbalances. I personally feel that we need more precision here, so limiting toxic masculinity to the cases where men are being toxic is exactly what's needed.
I also agree that some people will take offence no matter what, so I can see that there is an argument for not wasting brain power on name changes that don't change the fundamental issue.
That said I disagree with the idea that there can't be a good healthy masculinity, in the same way that there can be healthy feminity.
Chances are the healthy versions of both are much closer to the mean than the unhealthy versions, but experience both in my personal relationships as well as observing the relationships of others, either heterosexual, homosexual makes me feel that you will always have a certain dichotomy in relationships.
That said there is no reason the lady couldn't be the more "masculine", for lack of a better word, partner, but that will also require an evolution of social norms and what we find attractive, and we are no where near that yet.
Finally, regarding the situation in France, on some fronts things are pretty good. There are equal pay laws, a minister in charge of gender equality and men get 4 weeks paid paternity leave when we (or our SO) has a baby (they get 3 months). We've also moved to "parent 1", "parent 2" rather than father and mother. The family justice system also privileges split custody (and having been through the system twice, I can tell you that this isn't just words, plural of anecdote isn't data YMMV but that's my experience even if I've read the contry online)
On the other hands, there's still a pay gap, promotions are still harder for women, we have a far right problem like everyone else (the 2027 presidential election will be interesting) and there is a major domestic violence problem that isn't going away (1/3 of all murders IIRC are domestic).
Since you talked about gender neutral terms, that's another item that's hot in France. French is a traditionally genderd language: Adjectives have to accord with their subject in number and gender, there is no "they" singular or plural and in case of pluriels, the masculine form is used in case of conflict, so a couple would be masculine plural.
Certain feminists have tried to change this by creating a they (iel as a mixture of il and elle) and using the median point to mash masculine and feminine versions of adjectives together, so "the man and the women were big and beautiful" would be "Les hommes et les femmes étaient grand•e•s et b•eaux•elles" rather than "grands et beaux" (I've taken an extreme example but the point stands)
Needless to say this isn't universally loved and has become a major battle ground, between those who want the new system, those who want the old, and those who would rather something less barbaric as an alternative (say "grand(e)s et beaux/belles")
Finally, I've found the masculinist term mainly on french subreddits where it's used to describe someone who belongs to mysoginistic social circles (what is often called the manosphere).