this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2023
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More stations more greater economies of scale. At some point this will be no more expensive than a gas station. Also, you have a much greater capacity per station compared to a charging station. It will pencil out to being cheaper than building the much greater number of charging stations. Not to mention maintenance. The cost of maintaining millions of charging stations will be a major challenge.
im no business major but even i can see its a no brainer to go with an 38 ev chargers vs 1 hydrogen station. and the same economies of scale will make it cheaper to build more ev stations cheaper. hydrogen may have a place, trucking and busses like greyhound might make sense for hydrogen but currently it makes no sense to build a hydrogen station for normal passenger vehicles.
Until you realize that 1 hydrogen station can refuel hundreds of cars per day. Economies of scale are in hydrogen's favor. BEV advocates are simply lying about the facts.
and so can 38 ev charging stations.
At 38x time the land area and far greater power consumption. And it does not scale very well either. Double the number of stations and everything doubles in cost. Nor are you getting a full 400 miles if you are assuming fast charging. You're looking at only a 80% max charge in that situation. Meanwhile, with hydrogen, you just need bigger tanks to support multiple stations. Everyone is fully refueled after 5 minutes consistently. It is the same idea as natural gas refueling stations. Once costs drop due to increases production and economies of scale, the hydrogen stations easily wins this argument in a walk.
Again, BEV advocates are simply lying. They are just trying to defend their car purchase. It is completely at odds with economics and physics.
ev chargers can be installed in existing parking lots negating a lot of that space issues. however if a gas station wants to serve both gas and hydrogen theirs only so much room for the tanks needed underground. and if you want bigger tanks thats even less room for other tanks.
have fun waiting for hydrogen, the rest of us are gonna leave you behind.
You will have to tear up all those parking spaces to put up chargers. Meanwhile, those gas stations already exist and it would just mean repurposing them for hydrogen.
Guys like you are just stuck in the past. You'll end up cheering on a dead end because you cannot conceive of progress in the car industry.
a trench a few feet deep vs digging deep enough to put a giant pressure vessel underground. which is harder? theres some work, sure, to install ev chargers but its much less, hince the price difference to install, to run copper wire in a conduit than it is to dig a hole for the pressure vessel to hold the hydrogen.
You'll have to do this millions of times and wire it all up. Cost is going to be north of $1 trillion for there to be enough of them.
And you're wrong about that: It is cheaper to move and store hydrogen than it is to build wires:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-hydrogen-cars-refuse-to-die-2bfd6295
You're repeating too much BEV propaganda. It is just more expensive and that is fact.
well when theres hydrogen stations around me ill admit i was wrong. til then i keep seeing more and more ev chargers. and they arent even at gas stations. and as we replace or renovate buildings itll be easier to add chargers. and yeah copper isnt cheap but you only need to run it once, vs have a truck keep resupplying you with hydrogen. and those truck drivers deserve a good wage. and then you need a gas station attendant, adding to the cost. and then theres is possible cleanup of soil contamination at said gas stations to even build a hydrogen pump. and then theres the fact it needs to be chilled and pressurized, again adding to the cost. vs electricity thats already there.
Same story as those who doubted BEVs. Also the same story as those who doubted solar power. Same as wind power before that. The facts don’t change just because “my idea is already here.” The facts clearly state that it will be cheaper to go with hydrogen stations that charging stations. So it is only a matter of when it will happen.
And there’s no clean up problem. Hydrogen has no contamination issues. This is you just making stuff up.
gasoline and diesel do though. youre mixing a cost to do something once, make and run a copper line, to a recurring cost, buying and delivering hydrogen. hydrogens time for passenger vehicles has passed. they were supposed to be the bridge to evs. well we have evs now. we do not need a bridge anymore.
also if the 145,000+ gas stations went to hydrogen itd be $242,417,200,000. way more than itd cost to add ev chargers everywhere. and that is one pump. now if they wanted two or three or four...
Hydrogen is not gasoline nor diesel. This is a ridiculous argument.
Hydrogen can be pipelined at 1/10 the cost of sending electricity via wires. If you actually paid attention to the conversation instead of spamming BEV propaganda, you’d notice that I said that already.
It will cost over a trillion dollars to put up enough charging stations for all cars. For hydrogen, it will be far less. Those are facts you cannot deny.
This is just BEV fanboyism run amok. The world will not head towards a BEV monoculture with zero alternatives. The fact that we’re even having this conversation shows how much brainwashing is going on. It is so extreme that it is evidence that BEVs are secretly in big trouble. Otherwise, why do BEV fans need to spam FUD and marketing propaganda like there is no tomorrow? It shows a type of insecurity that suggests BEV fans actually do not really believe their own claims.
and where do you think hydrogen pumps are gonna be installed? oh yeah, existing gas stations as that makes sense for the type of fuel it is which can very much have contamination issues. and how much will it take to run these hydrogen pipelines to these stations? cause they dont exist now. and that not even talking about producing hydrogen. we might get green hydrogen in the future but today the vast majority isnt. meanwhile theres plenty of electric wires already in place.
You are replacing gas stations with hydrogen stations. You are removing contamination issues. And again, it is far cheaper to put hydrogen pipelines than wires. The economics will drive adoption. People will choose the cheaper option over the more expensive one. You are just advocating the status quo and insisting that nothing can change.
so youre suggesting its cheaper to run pipeline than it is to tie into the existing electrical grid?
and that not even going into hydrogen like to leak from any hole it can find so those pipeline have to be perfect all the time.
im not saying things cant change, just that weve already moved on from what hydrogen was meant to be. theres no point to use electricity to produce hydrogen, in the cleanest form, only to eventually turn it back into electricity. when we can just use electricity from the beginning cutting out a lot of losses.
I'm not suggesting. I brought sources indication that this, in fact, is the case.
Most of your counterarguments are just fearmongering. As if engineers haven't already looked at these issues before making such claims. In reality, it is the cheaper idea by far. BEV fanatics are just spamming propaganda in order to deny these facts. It is frankly out-of-control and it is a sign of desperation.
Its cheaper to install a DC fast charger than it is a mile of pipeline. And that's not even including the pumps themselves.
https://ingaa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/21527.pdf
You get significantly more capacity with a pipeline than with wires. You are just obfuscating the facts.
Still doesn't make it any cheaper to get the pipeline from who knows where to the station. Much less building the station. And is shell and BP and whomever else gonna run their own pipelines or are they gonna be shared?
Where does the electricity for charging stations come from? BEV fans never answer this question honestly. They just pretend it will just be green electricity. In reality, this is an extremely hard problem. By the time you figure a way to guarantee green electricity, you'd realize that you're making hydrogen for energy storage already. So in truth, the solution will involve hydrogen no matter what.
Wind, solar, hydro, or hell even coal as it would still be cleaner than an ice vehicle. And no we don't need to store electric as hydrogen, we can store electricity as electricity it's called a battery.
You're not comparing to a ICE car. You're comparing it to a hydrogen car. A BEV running on dirty energy is going to be much worse than a hydrogen car on green energy.
Storing it in a battery would be incredibly expensive at scale. The point of hydrogen is that you can store large quantities of it.