this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2024
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[–] mightyfoolish@lemmy.world 10 points 14 hours ago (10 children)

I understand that Saddam Hussein was a terrible man. But it sucks that support from his opposition is what helped push this. They're not bad because they are Shia; they are simply the worst of the people that opposed Hussein. This is what happens when you prop up puppet governments. The rights of the people aren't important to the puppeteer.

Tl:dr: Even with Saddam Hussein's death, Iraq never got its freedom.

[–] kava@lemmy.world 1 points 13 hours ago (9 children)

At the time when we launched the aggressive and illegal invasion of a sovereign county, we were doing it for Democracy™ and Human Rights™

At the time, you would have been called a traitor, shill, or insane to suggest otherwise.

After some years, it becomes absolutely clear none of it was true. It was all for imperialist motives. It seems that the propaganda is strong, but it has a short half life. Today you'll have trouble finding someone defending the US invasion of Iraq.

I think we are seeing the same thing with Ukraine war. In 10, 15 years people will see the war for what it is- a progressive destabilization of Eastern Europe and intentional proxy war.

But right now- it's Sovereignty™, International Law™, and Democracy™

We destroyed Iraq. We doomed millions of people for generations. And we are participating right now in the destruction of another country.

It's just that we do. We destroy.

[–] chuymatt@startrek.website 12 points 13 hours ago (3 children)

Ok. That is until the Ukraine bit. Russia chose to invade. It was made very clear in the press that the US knew what was happening on the border and gave Putin every chance to stop it Ukraine is a sovereign country and did not want more Russian influence and was courting EU membership.

[–] kava@lemmy.world -2 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (2 children)

Ukraine is getting destroyed because they happen to be a small country in between two great powers having a proxy war. Russia is the invader, the aggressor, the one who broke international law.

But US is not naive here. This was expected and planned for a long time before 2022 and a long time before 2014. Proxy war takes two sides to tango. We're not supporting Ukraine because of democracy and sovereignty and human rights, we're doing it for geopolitical motives. A sort of modern Spanish Civil War. Testing out new battlefield technology before the next Great War.

Unfortunately for the people of Ukraine the geopolitical motives and interests of the US don't necessarily align with their interests. Like Chomsky says "we will fight them to the last Ukrainian"

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

We’re not supporting Ukraine because of democracy and sovereignty and human rights, we’re doing it for geopolitical motives.

You should be supporting Ukraine because of democracy, sovereignty, and the security guarantees you gave them by signing the Budapest memorandum, remember, when Ukraine gave up its nukes. You are supporting them not because you care about any of that including your promises, agreed, you're too fickle for that, but because you don't want to lose Europe as an ally, a geopolitical motive, because boy can I tell you Europe cares about all four points, more than everything Europe cares about Ukrainians caring, about supporting a rightful struggle by a people dreaming of a better future, and Russia re-igniting imperialist BS. And you'll continue to support Ukraine even if you don't care about Europe because you care about Ukraine not nuking up.

All this, ultimately, just amounts to a French win. They wanted strategic autonomy for Europe for a long while, they considered NATO braindead for a long while, getting the US out of the equation, having everyone see how fickle, unreliable, and of course self-absorbed and self-righteous or self-hating (depending on how that exceptionalism swings) you are, is just what's needed to for the rest of Europe to fully buy into French doctrine. The US is driving nail after nail into the coffin of Atlanticism and the French are loving it.

...and that's another reason why you won't be dropping Ukraine: Because then your military-industrial complex would lose a very affluent customer. Currently European states get shouted at by the French when they buy US instead of European, that voice would fall completely silent because noone would be buying US, any more. Who'd have thunk in the face of Trump greed might just save your geopolitical standing.

[–] Laser@feddit.org 4 points 10 hours ago

The fact that this wasn't a three day operation is in large part sure to the US. But your portrayal of the facts makes no sense. Nobody is forcing Ukraine to ask the US for help (except Russia). The US obliges because it does align with their interest. But in the end, all international help at scale is motivated by national interest.

Testing out new battlefield technology before the next Great War.

Should a nation only fight with pre-agreed equipment that is at least of a certain age?

Unfortunately for the people of Ukraine the geopolitical motives and interests of the US don't necessarily align with their interests.

Well, they for sure don't align with Russia's.

Like Chomsky says "we will fight them to the last Ukrainian"

Or was it North Korean?

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