this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2024
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Democrats wanted to incrementally improve things. Republicans wanted to round us up into camps.
Voters had an opportunity to prevent a christo-fascist dictatorship and they didn't take it. Moving things to the left in this country has always involved voting. Losing our democracy doesn't improve the Democratic Party. If there is another election, which we can't count on, Democrats are going to learn that they need to move further to the right to pick up votes. They've done it before, and they will do it again. They will look at the conservatives who voted and tailor a party platform for them.
Democrats could not care less about appealing to nonvoters or third party voters. They only care about winning, which is probably part of why they suck at it.
Voting should be a mechanical choice during elections. If people want better candidates, organize, and do the work to get grassroots movements off the ground between elections.
Instead of picking a strategy based on a subjective morality people should consider analyzing strategies based on their utility.
If a strategy advances a goal it's useful. If it doesn't, it's not. Voting for the Democrats demonstrates a wider voting base for them to move to the left. Moving Democrats to the left is the goal so this strategy is useful. Protest voting takes votes away from the Democrats so they look for voters on the right. This accomplishes the opposite of the goal so this strategy is not useful.
They've had four years to, and to the average American, they didn't. They improved things, but not enough for the average American to notice, or care.
In comparison, regardless of how he did it, Trump got things done that his base wanted.
They did that this time and lost. They did it in 2016 and lost. The Democrats want a return to the status quo, and nothing else. Americans want change, the status quo is not working for them, but the Democrat party will not try to rally the vote. They scream about Republicans and voter suppression, but where's the law mandating voting? Or making it a federal holiday? Or requiring paid time off to vote for essential employees?
You're talking about strategy, well, progressives want to align with the Democrats, right? The FPTP system only allows for two viable parties, right, because winner takes all, and third parties can't compete? Therefore, progressive third party candidates, under the current system, can't gain any political power because the system is broken, right?
Ok, so let's work within the system we have. Republicans are fascist, not very progressive, guess that leaves the Democrats. And they seem open to it! But they keep telling us no, now's not the right time for XYZ, we don't have the support, we have to stop/prevent XYZ. We keep voicing concerns and want our issues addressed, and we keep being ignored, told we have to get back to normal before we can move forward, condescended to, or outright dismissed.
You keep saying the Democrats will just keep moving right, and that's exactly the point I'm making, and the reason people didn't go out in droves for Harris. You keep saying the Democrats will just try to keep stealing Republican voters, well, then they deserve to lose. 37% of eligible voters vote, and instead of trying to garner that other 63% of the voters to come out, they'll cut off their nose to spite their face and refuse to adopt progressive, populist policies?
You're basically telling me the Democrat's strategy is, "Do what we say or we'll become more like the fascists." Cool, so delayed fascism versus fascism... Hence "what difference does it make if our wants don't matter."
No, voting is part of how we move the Overton window to the left. If we don't vote, it moves to the right.
The parties are not the same. Democrats passed the infrastructure bill, cancelled student load debt, and appointed judges to the courts that uphold our rights. They did those things in response to pressure from grassroots movements that showed the viability of progressive causes. Republicans separated immigrant families, took reproductive freedom away from Americans, and led an insurrection against our country. People who aren't watching Fox News or otherwise trapped in right-wing information silo can tell them apart.
There's no way to argue you out of a con. You've been duped and we need people like you to realize it. Or things will not get better. The people who sold you the both sides narrative are gone. They spread their misinformation, tanked American democracy, and now you are still parroting their talking points.
I am begging you. You have been fooled. Please believe me. Again, it is not possible for me to argue you out of this. You have to trust someone. If you can't trust me or any of the other people on lemmy saying the same thing, find someone irl you can trust. That's the only way you can get better.
First of all, do not tell me that I've been "duped" or don't understand the situation, because I could say the exact same of you thinking the parties are not the same. And to be clear, I did not claim they're both the same side, in fact, if you go back and look at a lot of my comments from the last week (excluding today), I actually explicitly point out that I encourage everyone to vote for Harris.
But she is not a progressive candidate, and she never ran as a progressice candidate. Everyone here is always screaming about "When someone shows you who they are, believe them" about Trump and his ilk, but none of you will apply the same scrutiny to the Democrats and their party leadership.
As the campaign went on, Harris moved further to the right, and that is evident by her adopting some of Biden's policies (Biden, btw, is still detaining immigrants at the border and doing all of the things we criticize the Republicans for, in fact, his administration actually helped pass a more strict immigration policy for the border). She garnered as much former Republican support as she could (no Palestinians were allowed to speak at the DNC, but they had how many Republicans parade across the stage).
This is the kind of shit I would expect to hear from a cult, not someone trying to have a rational discussion about the failings of a political party. She showed us she cared more about garnering the votes of Republicans than she did trying to win over progressive non-voters within her own party. Biden has shown us he's made progress, but not to the average American, and not in any meaningful way.
And y'all need to stop acting like Harris got on stage and by virtue of not being Trump was going to save this country. She's a career centrist Democrat who ran on a centrist platform, promising a centrist return to the status quo that centrist Joe Biden has been leading us through for four years.
Y'all keep trying to get your party on board with incremental change while they witness landfall change coming from the other party. Maybe the Democrats need to adopt more progressive policies and run candidates voters want to vote for for fucking once, instead of counting in someone to vote against.
Or they can keep screaming that our voices, concerns, and wants don't matter, and they can keep trying to pander votes from a demographic (Republicans) that will never fucking support them. And, just like in 2016, they care more about the support of people who would never support them.
They lost because of it, and that's on them. The Democrats need to win voters to their party, and this bullshit Republican-lite "we're not fascist and we totally promise this time we'll actually make progress for realsies" isn't working anymore. I hope they choose to go progressive, but looks more like the Democrats will just shift further right, alienating more progressive voters and giving fascism a stronger foothold next election (assuming we have one).
Kamala was a neoliberal, who would improve things incrementally, running against a fascist. We all knew she wasn't an ideal candidate and told people that. I know I did. We know the Democrats are neoliberals, a right leaning political position. We needed to delay fascism four more years to get a progressive or socialist candidate in the next Democratic primary. We failed.
It's over. We lost the election. You were had. I'm sorry that happened. It can happen to anyone.
Take a break, when you feel better, come back. People will be organizing to fight back against fascists. This time, please join them instead of arguing against them. Saying 'both sides' isn't helping.
It's people like you that just prove my point.
I voted for Harris. I wasn't "had."
Yeah, I'm fucking tired of hearing this. Y'know what could've delayed fascism and turned out the vote? Any measurable progress for the average American over the last four years.
You're so oblivious to it, and you act like you're the only one who actually gets it. You think Biden's mental acuity dropped overnight in July?
The DNC was well aware of his declining mental health well before that, well before the primaries. And they hid it, and actively chose to hide it from the country, all while acting like all was completely fine. Then they waited for the debate, saw it went disastrously, and then decided it'd be best to run another candidate. Except, le gasp, there is not enough time to run a full primary! Oh no! What do we do?!
Eh, we'll just run the VP, and we'll run her on a centrist platform to try and win over Republicans. Yeah, yeah... That'll do it.
Where was Bernie in that discussion? Or better yet, how did it go trying to get Bernie as the candidate in 2016? I distinctly remember the DNC acting completely above board the entire time, listening to their constituents, and running a progressive campaign tha-
Oh, wait, no, that's all a lie. Historically, factually, it was a lie. The DNC has made it clear they will not, ever, support a progressive candidate. They showed us that in 2016, they showed us in 2020, and even when faced with fucking fascism, they refused to run a progressive platform in 2024.
Oh go fuck yourself. Playing the "Just four more years of centrism, we promise for realz this time, 100%" is not helping.
Speaking to people on here like they're some misguided child who spilled a glass of milk is "not helping."
Trying to distance the Democrats from the conservative party they are and continue to show themselves to be "isn't helping."
Fuck you.
We're on the same team. We try get to the Democrats to win because as progressives and socialists we are outside the Overton Window in the US. Getting the Democrats to win and move to the left is the strategy minority groups have been doing for decades. Disinformation campaigns to make people lose sight of that fundamental strategy is part of how Harris lost. A lot of younger people didn't know better and fell for it.
Israel's genocide in Gaza has been Gen Z's moral injury. Bad actors exploited that to give fascists the win. And a lot of people fell for it.
No one fell for anything, the Democrats are a shitty party who won't get with the times, no one was brainwashed, you just sound sad and delusional.
Is it true or not that Biden has continued support to Israel, unmitigated and even sidestepping Congress, despite vocal outcries from his constituents? Is it true or not that Harris basically followed Biden's policy regarding Palestine despite vocal opposition from within her own party?
THERE IT IS!! Can't just blame all voters, no no, now we've got to blame young voters specifically for the Democrats failing to distance themselves from a genocide, and running an uninspiring campaign for a large part of their voting populace they completely discounted.
God, I didn't think it'd be a post-election day discussion without the young people being blamed for everything.
Israel's genocide in Gaza was the softest ball the Democrats could've been served, and they whiffed on it repeatedly. A proxy state humiliated us and made us their bitch on the world stage, and the Democrats still wouldn't stop cradling Netanyahu's balls for him.
And it's disgusting that politicians put the American people in the situation of having to choose whether or not to support a genocide, and worse, to what degree they support one.
I didn't realize bad actors pointed out the absurdity of the Democrat campaign (not allowing primaries because Biden wouldn't step down and his staff hid his failing mental faculties, running on a centrist platform despite early progressive motivation, reversing her fracking policy, not supporting M4A, basically being Biden 2.0).
I also didn't realize bad actors chose to try and court the vote of people who would never support them (Republicans) while making no effort to win over the more progressive part of the party because 🤷♀️. That's the real "fell for it": the Democrats really thought "wE'rE nOt FaScIsT" was going to be good enough for another election. They really thought getting Walz to play on Twitch was more important and enticing then telling Americans they would get progressive policies.
But you're right, let's keep blaming the voters fed up with the system, and especially being fed up with, "No no, for realz, this time for realz we promise we'll do the things we promised the last 4 times, really for real."
Maybe the Democrats should've taken their voters seriously, and their wants seriously, at any point in the last few decades. But no, we get centrist, status quo bullshit, and if we demand our candidates move left, we get chucklefucks like you telling us we need to meet them in the very middle, and then we can start asking them to move our way. Bullshit, the Democrats can move left, or they can cease to exist, we keep trying it their way, and nothing is getting done.
Hope it was worth losing to fascism, DNC, you and your party elite sure do keep showing us you know best. 👍
We lost to fascism. This is the useless rhetoric that lost us the election. If we wait for the perfect candidate we will never see any progress in this country again. We got to this point with the rights we have because people voted for the furthest left option they could.
You have fallen for every fallacy that was thrown at you this election. As long as you care more about keeping your hands clean than people you will be stuck this way. Find someone you can trust irl. Anyone who has something to lose from this christo-fascist takeover will tell you got it wrong. Rejecting the Democrats feels good to you, but it has done nothing but harm the causes you claim to care about.
We knew the Democrats were neoliberals. The assignment was to prevent the christo-fascist takeover. People who didn't vote for Harris or spread this rhetoric failed the assignment. Trump may get two more Supreme Court picks and Israel will be allowed to continue their genocide of Palestinians indefinitely.
The stakes could not have been higher this election. At no point does the Democrats being neoliberals who are bad on issues compel us to be ineffectual. We got bogged down by rhetoric that got in the way of what we as the left needed to win, record voter turnout.
Everything in your post boils down to the Democrats didn't promise me everything I wanted so it's the Democrat's fault. This is a useless mindset that helps no one. For everyone's sake, ditch it.
A politicians job during a campaign is to convince people they are worth electing.
Harris lost the electoral college and the popular vote. Harris failed to convince a majority of the electorate that she was worth voting for. That's it, that's the whole story: she failed to win over voters, and failed to rally support from her own party.
She became Biden 2.0 as her campaign went on, and people didn't want four more years of Biden. She showed no meaningful difference between the current administration and her own should she win.
She lost Michigan by less than 100,000 votes. More than 100,000 people protest voted over Palestine during the primaries there. Harris took that information, and doubled down on Biden's policy, ignoring her constituents. The DNC welcomed numerous Republican officials to speak at the DNC, the same officials who helped Trump during his first presidency, they were welcomed with open arms. But no Palestinian Democrats, including those put forward by the Uncommitted Protest Vote Movement, were given time to speak at the DNC.
And as her campaign went on, she proved that was more concerned with trying to win over Republicans (like Hillary failed to do in 2016, and Biden failed to do in 2020) than she was trying to rally support from her own undecided voters and non-voters. Less than 40% of eligible voters vote, so her strategy was completely write off the 60% that could he won over, and focus on trying to win conservatives, which required more Centrist policies, which just alienates progressive Democrats...
Anyway, let's see, oh yeah: 94% of registered Republicans voted for Republicans in 2024, the exact same amount as 2020.
No one was duped, you sound weird and strange talking the way you do. It's off-putting and makes me want to actively work against Democracy, because you're doing exactly what I've been describing: dismissing everything I have to say while condescendingly speaking to me like I'm some misguided child.
You need grow up and accept that the Democrats fucked up, backed the wrong strategies, and were significantly more unpopular than they thought they were.
It is sad how quickly and easily you've fallen for the fallacy that it's not party leadership, but the voters they're supposed to represent and reflect that are the reason why Democrats can't fucking win. Absolutely delusional.
Which is why American politicians stay in the American Overton window. Which is on the right side of the political spectrum. The way we made progress is by voting for the party that was the furthest to the left.
DNC consultants, including Hillary Clinton, took over Harris' campaign after the DNC and ran it into the ground. That's not permission to give fascists a free pass. We are not Democrats. We don't live or die based on what Democrat politicians do. We find a way to make their campaign work because everyone's lives depend on it. There's too much at stake to just throw up our hands and say both sides. Democracy is not we the Democrats, it's We the People.
Yes, Republicans demonstrating they understand how democracy works as they dismantle it.
This is you. Duped. Sounding weird and strange. Actively working against democracy because you didn't get what you wanted. It is an incredibly childlike temper tantrum.
The options were Biden or Harris or fascism. Through our collective failure we have chosen fascism. As adults, it's our job to take responsibility for what We the People had control over, which was our votes. Now if we fail to organize we will likely end up in death camps.
You've given up your agency the second you had someone to blame your misfortune on. I recommend you reconsider. There is again to much at stake to continue blame a party that is now going to prison. If we fail, we will again have no one to blame but ourselves.
And they have no one to blame but themselves.
I like how you refuse to listen and double down on this "Democracy too important, must vote blue no matter who" nonsense that, spoiler alert, clearly wasn't enough to drive Americans to the polls.
That's a failure on the Democrats, not the voters, and you're the childish one trying to blame the passengers of a car wreck instead of the ones who were driving.
I'm sorry speaking rationally and placing the blame where it belongs, at the feet of those who campaigned, sounds strange and delusional.
Tell me, how many people have you convinced to keep supporting Harris/the Dems with this weird, hippie, grand wisened elder schtick you're trying to make sound so thought provoking.
I didn't realize that in those options, Harris had to mirror every unpopular policy decision made by Biden over the last four years. She chose to.
The DNC chose to run unpopular policies, chose to not listen to their voters who wanted their concerns heard and responded to (not dismissed), they chose to keep Biden in the primaries well past his ability to govern/campaign effectively.
They chose all of this, these were their decisions. Decisions that convinced 14 million Democrats that voted in 2020 to stay home because they don't feel represented.
But no no, you're right, Democracy was too important for the Democrats to alter their message, or campaign on different policies, no no, you're absolutely fucking right, that is ABSOLUTELY FUCKING UNTHINKABLE TO EXPECT OF A POLITICAL CANDIDATE.
No, you're fucking right, the more I think about it, why do we even fucking vote, the Democrats know better than me anyway, a person living as an actual average American, hurting miserably under the current system.
You're right, you're a million billion percent right, guess I'll go turn myself in because I cost the Democrats the election by criticizing them. We can't expect change of our politicians, you're right, ludicrous idea.
I'll go check myself into a mental institution, that seems fitting since I seem to have this crazy thought that fucking adults can change their opinions to better align with those they're supposed to represent.
You're right, from now on, I'll just vote blue, and I'll threaten anyone who criticizes them in any way to make sure they understand that this isn't a joke, the Democrats don't have to fucking do anything, it's all on us voters, and I don't want to cause fascism again!! No no, I, the fucking average American who doesn't have a national platform or millions of campaign contributions to use to spread my message, myself and every other worthless plebian who forgot their place at the feet of the Democratic elite, should have known better.
You are a fucking joke, dude, let me know when the Democrats decide they actually want to represent the will of the American people.
The Democrats aren't going to become the party you think you deserve. But they are the party we can use to achieve our goals. If we fail to leverage them effectively that's on us. Spreading this propaganda is self-defeating. It's an exercise in shooting yourself in the foot. The Democratic Party is what we have to move the needle to the left. If we insist on casting them in the most unfavorable light possible to everyone, we shouldn't be surprised when no one wants to vote for them and they lose. Your time would be better spent targeting the Republicans with this stuff considering they are the people who want to kill us.
Obviously the Democrats would do better if they adopted a populist message. We can't control the Democratic Party. But we can influence the rhetoric around how people view their vote. If we make the Democrats look like fascists who must be protested out of a moral duty, then we've done the Republicans a favor. If we point out the Democratic Party are a useful way to advance progressive and socialist causes over time then we've done leftists a favor. Let's do the latter.
Of course we'll see what happens next year with this. Seems like the party could die if it's leadership are all arrested. If it doesn't, let's use the Democrats to our advantage. edit: typo
They cast themselves in unfavorable light, no one forced them to behave the way they have this entire campaign, or how they've behaved towards their own supporters.
They lose, and no one votes for them, because they don't show the American populace that they'll get anything done, and they don't campaign on anything beyond the status quo.
The Democrats are going to continue to lose until they acknowledge that people would rather the system burn than be forced to hold their nose and get nothing for another 2+ years. 14 million fewer Democrats voted this year than they did in 2020, that is not a failing of the electorate, it's a failure of the party.
Voting is a two way street. You've said repeatedly that we can't have the candidate we feel we deserve, or we can't have progressive candidates, or that we can't have Palestine because XYZ, and we can't expand the Supreme Court because XYZ.
Ok, so then what are the electorate getting? We're not asking for everything, I've never once said they have to run a candidate who supports every single progressive policy, but we can have something something progressive to believe in? Instead of "stfu and vote for us and maybe we'll move a little in four years if we feel like it."
The DNC can't have their cake and eat it too. You can't ignore a large portion of the voting population but still expect them to give a fuck about you. I guarantee you Harris would have at least had a better shot if she had a few progressive policies that differed enough from Biden and actually gave Americans hope.
Instead, they just leaned back on "bUt FaScIsM," dug their heads in the sand to any compromise within the party, and then fucks like you come out blaming the electorate for "not understanding the gravity of the situation."
Cool, the political party with millions of dollars in record breaking campaign fundraising, multiple national figures with national audiences to convey their message, and multiple A-list celebrity endorsements, they don't have to understand the severity of the situation and compromise, no no, it's us, the electorate, who are to blame, and who should've, how does Lemmy keep putting it, "stfu, grow up, and vote."
Real winning slogan y'all adopted.
Then why won't they? Not can't, not shouldn't, why won't they? We're not asking for fucking gold limousines for every American, we want healthcare, livable wages, and better social services.
Why is it so unreasonable for the Democratic party to consider any of these?
I want you to answer that. I want you to explain to me why it is unreasonable for a political party losing to fascism to change their party platform. Not "tHe MoVeMeNt mUsT cOmE fRoM wItHiN," I want you to explain to me why a group of grown ass adults, whose sole job is to represent their constituents, can't grow the fuck up and adopt any meaningful platform or policy that will win them elections.
They did that themselves by refusing to distance themselves from Palestine, as I have repeatedly stated, and that they made very clear to the Arab/Muslim voters multiple times in public.
Choosing not to participate in a system you don't feel represented in isn't a protest, it's aligning your vote with who best represents you and your interests. If they vote for no one, then neither candidate could successfully convince them they were worth voting for.
And continuing to act like apathetic voters are just naive and speaking to them the way you do, why would they want to support your movement? "Your feelings are wrong, and you did wrong, but I forgive you because I believe I'm morally superior for treating the Democratic party as a cult."
Give them something to hope for, and they'll probably hope again. That's the Democrats first priority, and this status quo bullshit isn't gonna cut it.
I don't expect them to change or learn a damn thing. It sure sounds like a lot less effort for them to shift right than it is for them to move left. And seeing as how they're too lazy to come up with a better strategy than the one they keep losing on, I'm just going to assume they'll continue to move right.
I hope not, I hope this scares them shitless so they can understand what the average American goes through on a daily fucking basis while they gamble with our lives on whims of fucking hubris. I hope some of them lose everything material in their lives, like many of their constituents are about to thanks to their arrogance and hubris.
Let's see some of these silver spoon Liberal Elite who fucking know best live on $7.25/hr with no benefits, six roommates, and the fucked up society they've gleefully left us to rot in until we're needed every election year. Maybe when they actually suffer consequences for once, they'll give a shit what Joe Smith nobody has to say about their foreign policy, or their complete lack of cohesion or progress.
Hope their lives were worth gambling on the status quo.
It's because the Overton window is shifted to the right in the US.
If the Democrats were a better tool, that would be great. They're neoliberals, they don't listen to anyone. Socialists have been able to get into their primaries. One day we might even get one of them elected as the nominee. But we need to keep our democracy long enough to do that. And there's a good chance we just screwed that up.
Harris called for a ceasefire multiple times and promised to do everything in her power to end the war in Gaza. Trump said Israel needed to finish the job. Harris was the correct choice to help the Palestinians.
I saw you were stuck parroting propaganda and still are, so I decide to try to reach you. Me pointing this out to you has clearly been upsetting. Who ever got you hooked on this wanted to debilitate you so you would harm your own interests and the causes that you care about. Hopefully you've been able to tell that I don't think particularly highly of the Democrats. I see how they are useful and point that out to people. You seem unable to stop trying to sink Harris' campaign. She lost. It's done. If we're lucky we will still have a two party system. In the event Democrats still exist in some capacity, consider using them to advance your goals, as opposed to spread propaganda about the Democrats at the expense of your goals.
It’s not much different than all of you saying, “Do what we say or we will allow democracy to die. All because of a single issue in a country we didn’t know existed a year ago!”
Oh and also, “Do as we say, or the LGBTQ, and women in America will suffer! We don’t really give a shit about the hardships they’ll now face because you didn’t cave in and do shit we don’t even understand!”
Wow... So the constituents of a political party wanting their concerns and issues addressed and taken seriously, otherwise they just won't vote for a party that doesn't represent them...
Is the same thing as the political party, who is supposed to represent the interests of their constituents, telling their constituents to tow the line or they'll become more fascist.
Constituents: We want our concerns addressed and progress made for the working people.
Democrats: Support us unconditionally or we'll just become more like the fascists to win their support, since our actions show winning is all that matters.
You: These are literally the same argument, but the constituents are the wronger ones.
This right here is what I've been pointing out for the last week: Democrats lose because the party is condescending, dismissive, and insulting to anyone who dares voice criticism. So those 100,000 protest votes organized by Muslim and Arab Americans, the same amount that Harris is currently losing Michigan by, yeah, that's just a single issue voter who hasn't even heard of Palestine until a year ago.
How incredibly insulting to people you're supposedly trying to win over while completely dismissing their concerns. Would you like to join the Palestinian speakers at the DNC on stage so you can insult them to their faces? Just kidding, the DNC chose to parade a bunch of Republicans across the stage rather than let a Palestinian speak.
The DNC to every progressive voter every voting day.
What shit were Democrat voters asking for that they didn't understand? Seriously, I want you to explain that to me, because from my understanding:
Those don't seem like things Americans don't understand, maybe you and the Democratic leadership need to get off your high horses and maybe acknowledge that people want to see actionable change and not just election cycle after election cycle of excuses and empty promises.
And just a reminder, Democrats had decades to enshrine Roe into law, and didn't do so the few opportunities they had because it was more useful as a campaign device.
Yeah… I’m not reading all of that. Enjoy your victory. You certainly earned it!
Shocker.
Naaah… what’s a “shocker” is the bullet-pointed, multi-paragraphed copypasta manifesto you all predictably respond with anytime someone so much as suggests that you’re wrong.
I'm flattered you think my writing is good enough for a copypasta 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
I like how I'm providing context and thought, y'know, those things in your brain that make your head hurt, but I'm also the copypasta troll who can't handle being told they're wrong.
That's cute, you're cute
Whatever gets you through the day.