this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2023
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It's not terrorism when it's a major state actor and they're not hiding their involvement. That's just war.
The bridge is a legitimate military target as it is used as a supply route
Uhm, no, based on your definition not even the official 9/11 story's Al-Quaida would be considered terrorists because they supposedly admitted to what they were doing:
FBI's terrorism definitions:
Encyclopedia Britannica:
Cambridge:
Al Queda was a non-state actor with state support. You bolded "nations", but that whole line says "designated foreign terrorist ... nations". The Ukrainians are not trying to instil fear, they're cutting a major logistical line with military uses.
Devils in the details, as usual.
I also bolded nations (state-sponsored), political organizations, state institutions such as armies and intelligence services.
Exactly for that reason. Ukraine is openly and clandestinely attacking* Russia, most likely with help from Western governments. The goal is to instill fear in the Russian population in order to reduce the russian population's willingness to support or accept the ongoing SMO/war against Ukraine/NATO expansion.
The goal is to deny Russia a supply route. If they wanted to instill fear they’d strike apartment buildings like the Russians do.
Ukraine was likely behind the assassination of Darya Dugin and they've flown drones armed with explosives over residential areas in Moscow.
Just one source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65751632
Not to forget the Nordstream pipelines (though I'm sure the US was heavily involved).
Come on man, there are no good people in war. Stop the "Russian talking points" line while simultaneously regurgitating Western talking points. It's quite tiresome.
"No good people in the war that Russia started and is perpetuating."
Ukraine's options for ending the war here are either continue fighting (in its own territory, even) or lay down and die. Are you seriously recommending it do the latter?
If you want better results, you should spend your time convincing Russia to end their war of aggression, instead of bitching about the lengths Ukraine must go to if it wants to not die.
I'll make sure to give Putin a call and let him know once I've finished dinner.
Or just stop posting Russia apologia and Ukraine whataboutism on the Internet? Pretty easy fix imo.
And leave everyone exposed to one-sided Western propaganda that's already all over the media? Nah, pass. I did my own research into the whole Ukraine/Russia/maidan coup story years ago after stumbling upon some people critical of the Western narrative. You and people like you can downvote and keep on repeating the same NATO talking points all you want, I'm not here for the clout/karma/whatever. :)
So because Western news exists you’ve decided to suck down one-sided Russian propaganda? That’s the stupidest thing I’ve heard. There is actually a true story here, despite attempts by willing idiots like you to apologize for Russian atrocities and hide the truth in Ukraine. You should consider that the next time you decide to shill on the Internet for imperialistic dictators.
You keep on repeating yourself and it's quite obvious you're not acting in good faith and that you're incapable of accepting that people may actually form opinions that aren't your own. I'm out. If you all you see is Russian propagandists, have fun living in that reality.
I can’t believe Russian shills are even here in lemmy. This sucks
Thanks for sharing your opinion, you're bringing a lot of good arguments to the table.
I’ll grant you Darya’s assassination is suspect, but like you admit, there’s no confirmation. As for the drones, that’s a ridiculous false equivalence given those drones were targeting military assets and no civilians were hurt by them, unlike Russias pattern of deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure.
I’ve seen no credible evidence that anyone other than Russia was behind the Nordstream attacks, but feel free to try to convince me otherwise.
I might add my grandparents were great when they fought off the fascist Nazis and Imperial Japanese. Russia is wholly in the wrong for this war and did so only under the false assumption they’d be able to take over quickly and with acceptable repercussions.
You’re the one bringing up “Russian talking points”; the views I present are my own.
He said, she said - we're going in circles here. Either we're both able to accept that we have our own views, hopefully based on research of somewhat neutral or at least sources of both sides or we'll keep throwing mud at each other for no reason.
Sure thing, see:
Source: The Grayzone
I'm aware TGZ is suspect to many (I can already hear the "tanki tankie!!!11" crowd) and I don't take anything they write at face value either, but seriously, this is solid reporting on the matter, a good summary of the various narratives that have been put into play so far, it's well sourced and based on data collected by Erik Andersson who lead an independent diving expedition to the blast sites. You can also check out his Substack if you absolutely don't want to read TGZ.
If you're still convinced it was Russia, I don't know what to tell you.
I hadn’t seen that post article, thanks for sharing.
You're welcome!
If the goal were to instill fear in Russian citizens, they'd be attacking Russian citizens.
They are not.
They are attacking a Russian supply line to hamper their offensive efforts.
When you give bad faith actors the benefit of the doubt, you look like a bad faith actor yourself. Stop parroting Russian talking points as if there's a way for Ukraine to have their approval without capitulating.
For example, like the Kremlin is bombing Ukrainian apartment buildings and murdering civilians.
You're replying to a comment where I explicitly mention that Russia and Ukraine are at war. Duh. Thanks for... explaining war?
I never disputed that Russia is killing Ukrainians. wtf.
Russians bombing apartments is more akin to terrorism than Ukrainians bombing a supply route.
I never disputed that.
Office buildings are not military targets, nor was the plane used to strike the Pentagon (getting ahead of that potential rebuttal). The Kerch bridge is as it’s used to transport military goods to the front line.
There's a reason I quoted multiple definitions. The 9/11 example is also clearly a response to the comment I'm replying to because the author claimed that terrorism requires that the perpetrators are hiding their involvement.
The purpose of felling the two towers was to cause terror and change amaricans political views.
The purpose of felling the Kerch bridge is to stop russian bringing military resources into the Ukraine.
What maybe a difficult point is something like the bombing of ww2 cities like Dresden, Coventry or Hiroshima. Many there were making munitions for Japan so was it.civilian or moltrry
Agreed, 9/11 isn't a good example for the topic of the RUS/UKR war. Thanks!
None of your definitions match Ukraine, which attacks military targets during an active war started by a nation that invaded them.
Now, Russia actively bombing civilian targets to generate a climate of fear in a population to bring a particular political objective, seems to awfully match that definition.
What's so interesting to me is that from much of what I've read - bombing civilian populations as a way to end a war has basically never worked. It was pushed heavily in WWII due to I think LeMay theories, but basically strengthened morale to stand up to the enemy instead.
Of course, not saying the Russians, or really anyone who gets into a war is necessarily behaving rationally, but this is sadly very destructive with very little history saying it'll help anyone achieve any goal.
Yeah, in case of Ukrainians they know that if they surrender it still won't be over, the next thing will be killing them and moving them to far east until the Ukrainian identity is completely erased.
The constant refrain of "Russia wants to kill every Ukrainian". It's never made sense. There has never been any reason to believe that the goal is to kill Ukrainians.
Can you lay out exactly why you think that Russia will kill Ukrainians once the war is over? Can you lay out why you think the goal is to kill Ukrainians?
Is it? Can you point me to anywhere that that's the stated goal?
Never has the stated goal included wanting to genocide Ukrainians. To say that's the case is to pretend your imagination is reality.
Do you believe things will get better if they have full control over Ukraine?
Thanks for explaining war to me. Helpful.