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Teachers in England will have to tell parents if children question their gender
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 17 Jul 2023
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Teachers are public servants.
If they're hiding necessary information about my kid from me, that's not serving the tax payers. That's government employees determining decisions for kids that aren't their own, without taking any risk for how these decisions turn out.
If your child is too afraid of telling you something important about themselves or their lives, that is a YOU problem. Public servants exist to protect children from risks to their health and safety, including risks at home. Nobody has a right to abuse their children. If you want to know about their lives and challenges, you need to make yourself a safe person for them to confide in. If you are not, that's on you and you alone.
Did you tell your parents everything in high school?
I smoked weed for the first time when I was 13, I didn't tell my parents. Is that because my parents are bad? I didn't tell them I had sex with my first girlfriend, does that make my parents bad? I didn't tell them I was with my homies and he was speeding down gardener road, going 100.
Are my parents bad?
And we have standards for that, if parents suspect abuse, they have to report it. Whether it's for the + community, or if it's for the straight cis community.
I agree.
I agree.
All your examples of things you hid from your parents are dangerous, illegal, and 'wrong'. You trying to lump personal identity in with things that can lead to jail or teenage pregnancy is very telling.
Should teachers also report when your child makes friends with a student of a different race or religion? Why or why not and if not, how is that any different from this? You keep referring to teachers 'making decisions about the child' but nothing is being 'decided' by teachers here. It's the children who are deciding this for themselves because they're also people with autonomy.
Yes, it's called 'behavior.'
The government forces parents to send our kids to government institutions for 'education' and if we want to know what's going on they tell us to shut up? Nah, family, I don't buy into that philosophy.
Did you not parent teacher meetings where they talk about how you're doing in school and who you're hanging out with?
The teachers are deciding to withhold information about how my kid behaves in a government forced institution. The teachers should be working with parents, not fighting against them.
How much autonomy? If they can decide for themselves, why shouldn't we remove the drinking age? Smoking age? military age? They're people with autonomy, right? If a kid gets caught drinking, their parents deal with it, not the kid.
What a nonsense, meaningless reply. This sounds like a response from someone who lacks critical thinking skills and doesn't understand the difference between behavior and identity.
This makes you sound unhinged. Who is 'they' and when did 'they' tell you to shut up?
Yes, and that's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Parent teacher conferences don't consist of the teacher listing the race, religion or ethnicity of the students I/my child hang out with, nor is there a specific mandate for them to do so.
Since you avoided my question, I'll ask you again: Should teachers also report when your child makes friends with a student of a different race or religion? Why or why not and if not, how is that any different from this? Are you capable of responding to this question or do you find it too challenging?
Are they? Or maybe they're just minding their own business when it comes to matters that don't involve education or risky/harmful behavior. If you want to know about your kid's behavior, why are you asking their teacher instead of them? You complain about 'forced government institutions' yet in the next breath demand they be the sole conduit into your child's life.
Why would anyone in their right mind want to work with someone who refers to them as a "servant" of theirs and claims they work for a "forced government institution" that's indoctrinating children? How are they "fighting against you" here?
What do any of these things have to do with a person determining their own identity just as every other autonomous human has done for millennia?
Parents are forced to send their kids to government agents at the threat of taking the kids away. The least they can do is being transparent with my kids behavior, if little jimmy wants everyone to call him Laquisha, that falls under behavior.
What's unhinged about it? My local school boards.
No it's not, teachers have been expected to let parents know what their kids are up to and how they're doing socially, emotionally and with their studies. The fact you are trying to have teachers keep these things from parents is more telling about you.
You made up this scenario and are arguing against it. That's weird.
If a kid has cancer should the nurses not tell the parents? Is transitioning not a very hard emotionally and mentally situation to be in? pre-transition, the suicide rate attempt is over 40%, how would you feel if your kid attempted suicide and you couldn't help because the teacher kept it a secret?
LOL, I say public servant, and the fact you try to pervert my argument and equate it with 'servant' is dishonest and disgusting. Every individual employed by the government is supposed to serve the tax payers.
I didn't complain it's a forced government institution, I said what it was. I don't demand I be the sole conduit, I demand that the teachers tell me what my kids are up to during their forced institutionalization. I know it may be odd that someone paying for the school, paying for the new gym, property taxes teachers salaries and their supplies might want to know how my kids are doing, but I think the governments job should always include transparency to those that they are serving.
You said that kids have autonomy. 13 year olds should be able to buy cigarettes, booze, get tattoos, right? Is there a reason we don't allow them to?
Estimates of child abuse range from 10-20% of all school age children in the UK. Any person who is working in a classroom (including TAs and volunteers) has had some amount of safeguarding training to help mitigate the risk of harm to children.
It is literally our/their job to help prevent or mitigate harm that might come to children in their home lives, and teachers, admins, and safeguarding leads make decisions every day based on a clear and well-monitored framework to do so. This decision, made by people with little or no experience in the field, spits in the face of all of that.
Exactly. "ALL SCHOOL AGE CHILDREN." We already have all these ways that teachers are obligated to report abuse if they suspect it. Why do we need to carve out special treatment of the LGBTQIA2S+ communities? They're just humans. If teachers suspect abuse, they should report it, whether it's for LGBTQIA2S+ or straight cis kids.
No your job is to be a public servant and educate kids. It's the parents responsibility to ensure their kids are safe.
Because it comes to parental rights, and limiting the influence government employees push on our youth.
LGBTQIA2S+, good one. I think they prefer 2SLGBTQIA+ because it elevates indigenous communities. I don't miss the social sciences, it's fair to say.
I think the indigenous communities are equals, and I'm not afraid to say it.
My entire argument is I think parents should be given the information and ability to raise their kids how they see fit (obviously within limits, like abuse)
The alternative of government employees determining that they know what's best for other peoples children, without assuming the risk for their actions is insanity.
You sound like exactly the kind of parent teachers should avoid sharing any information with. You claim to be against abuse but you want to force teachers to share information that is well known to result in kids being abused by their parents.
That's the problem. You think the government employees should be the ones making decisions on behalf of the kids. They shouldn't.
If teachers suspect abuse, they are legally obligated to report it.
There is so much wrong with that statement.
First, teachers make decisions on behalf of kids all the time. It's literally their job.
Noting that they're government employees just sounds like an anti-government dog whistle.
Saying they're making a decision "on behalf of kids" is wrong because the law only matters when teachers see a conflict of interest between the parents and kids. They're being forced to act AGAINST the kids on behalf of unsupportive parents.
Finally, this isn't just a matter of judgment. We know for a fact that some alarmingly large percentage of parents will disown our otherwise abuse their kids after finding out they're LBGT+. This law is specifically designed to endanger those kids, and no amount of bloviating about the property role of government will change that fact.
They can only report it after it's too late to prevent it, and they're being forced to create the conditions that precipitate it. Are you really gonna argue that dealing with abuse after the fact is even remotely as good as preventing it in the first place?
Also, in a lot of cases you're asking teachers to permanently damage the kids' relationship with their parents. They're not gonna get their families back when they become adults
No, their job is to teach the basics that we as a local society would like. They are funded by local tax payers to serve tax payers.
Noting that they're government employees puts into perspective that these are people that should be serving the people, not establishing a government culture in our youth. In principle, there's little difference between the government using elementary schools to shape the youth as the indian boarding schools. They've moved from teaching objective studies like math, english and science, with teaching about subjective topics like sexuality and gender.
Meanwhile our kids test scores are getting worse compared to our peer countries, despite spending a shit ton more money. Then they tell us the reason is because we aren't giving them enough money.
You assume giving parents information about their kids school behavior is working against the kids, and also assuming the parents are unsupportive. What you're asking is for governmeny employees to determine on behalf of the kids what's better for them than their parents, and judging the morality of their parents based on incomplete information.
You're asking the teachers to raise the kids. That's not their jobs.
And we should invest in programs to help the homeless youth.
We can't protect everyone from everything their parents do. And shouldn't leave it up to government employees to make the determination of withholding information about a kids behavior at a place that the government forces parents to send their kids to at the threat of taking the kids away.
Have teachers teach and invest in programs that help the youth whose parents aren't caring for them. Just like we say that cops have too many issues that they aren't experts on that we call them for, teachers are being given too much responsibility for issues they aren't experts in.
Kids are not your property.
If your kid is trans or gay and they don't feel safe coming out to you then that's your fault. There are no decisions being made. Kids are going to be queer weather you like it or not.
If you think you can "do something" about your kids being queer then that's probably why they don't want to tell you.
Legally, parents/guardians are responsible for them. If my kid breaks something in a store, do they arrest my kid if he's unwilling to pay?
I agree.
Deciding to intentionally withhold information from parents is a decision.
I agree.
I agree.
What are you even arguing, dude? You're just saying some blanket statements.
Why is this automatically what's going to happen to kids whose teachers tell their parents if they're socially transitioning?
Why is it always 'OH MY GOD, THE PARENTS WILL KNOW THEY WILL KILL THESE KIDS'
Unless you can prove that that is the most likely scenario in these cases, that's a shit argument.
How often does this happen? Can you provide any statistics that can convince a reasonable person this is a widespread issue?
Exactly the difference between you and I. I think the people should be protected from the government, so we can live our lives. You think the government should protect the people by everyone doing what the government thinks.
Some, sure.
You're acting like this is the default situation if the teachers tell their parents that the kids are socially transitioning at school.
And if you look at the survey that it's based on, it's clear why the numbers are staggering.
"We are also proud that this sample is our most diverse yet, with 45% being LGBTQ youth of color and 38% being transgender or nonbinary."
nearly 40% of the surveors is made up of the minority of people that identify as LGBTQIAS2+. Transgenders make up 8% of the LGBTQIA2S+ community, and they clearly have these issues much worse than the others in the community. So they're weighted more than 4x as much in these statistics.
Do you think these %'s would change vastly if they used a proportionate sample size as the LGBTQIA2S+?
I agree, especially trans youth, have issues at home, that's why I'm for a huge investment in programs helping these kids, not just for the + community, but for all youths experiencing homelessness, but that's outside the scope of schools.
What cases would you say the government is used for the people by the people? What's that mean in schools today?
Because what I'm seeing is it's being used by the education system, for the education system. Our test scores are near the bottom of all OECD countries, despite spending more than any other country, and 30% more than most of our peer countries
The schools say we don't give them enough money, that's why we're falling behind. But instead, we give them much much more, while receiving a worse and worse education, and they want to teach our kids stuff we don't want them to. I imagine the reaction would be different if the education system was doing well, if we felt our kids were being taught correctly. Instead it's crappy, expensive and not what we want, that's a bad sell to most parents.
I'm not worried about it. I treat people with love, and patience. Just because you and I have different views on how to tackle social issues, doesn't mean I'm gonna die alone and my kids will hate me. It actually makes me feel really bad for you that you think if someone disagrees with you, that their lives should be miserable.
Are you going to follow this up by claiming the right to physical violence against your child if they don't conform?
They have qualifications to do their job. The only qualifications you have is you fucked one night and nine months later popped out a baby. But that suddenly makes you the expert.
You sound like a devil trying to control your children like that.
Exactly. I need you for one purpose: Teach my child . If my child sets fire to a car, it's my ass on the line. If my child gets hurt, it's me at the hospital. If my child has an issue, hiding it from me is less than useful, it's negligent.
Until a kid is 18, they're -legally- 100% my responsibility and how they're raised is my call.