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Indy installed no-turn-on-red signs at downtown intersections. Are drivers obeying them? (www.wishtv.com)

submitted 7 months ago by redfox@infosec.pub to c/indiana@midwest.social

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...

The pace of violations, recorded since the city restricted turns at 97 downtown intersections, amounts to an average of about seven tickets per month.

Two pedestrian advocates told Mirror Indy they would like to see more enforcement, but city officials said the number of tickets issued is only one metric — and not the most indicative of success when it comes to pedestrian safety measures.

“Their desired effect was not to increase (the) number of tickets issued by IMPD. It was to ensure the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists in the Mile Square,” Vop Osili, the Democratic president of Indianapolis City-County Council, said in an emailed statement to Mirror Indy.

...

The policy change followed a study from the Indianapolis Department of Public Works that looked at a five-year history of pedestrian-related crashes in the downtown area. It found that 57% of were the result of vehicles failing to yield to pedestrians at intersections with traffic signals.

Data also showed that downtown pedestrians were more than twice as likely to be involved in a crash compared to pedestrians in the rest of Marion County.

...

Freeman, who was a city-county councilor from 2010 to 2016, argued that the policy would “create confusion and congestion” and “won’t stop distracted, reckless or aggressive driving.”

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[–] becausechemistry@lemm.ee 6 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I live downtown (a stone’s throw from the monument), and most people seem to follow the rules. But not everyone does. Pretty easy to break them down into groups.

Big, usually black, SUVs and trucks
Vehicles with “thin blue line” stickers / police-supporting license plates / etc
Out of state license plates

I think all but the out-of-town folks (who aren’t used to it and don’t notice the signs due to being overwhelmed with city driving and traffic) just go ahead and do whatever they want because of a “you can’t tell me what to do” attitude. Indy cops certainly don’t enforce the signs.

The Indiana state legislature loves to dictate how Indianapolis governs itself. Refusing to comply with the signs is sort of a political statement to some, the equivalent of giving the finger to data-driven, progressive policy.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Go insights, thanks.

Ha, I'll put myself down, being guilty of 'don't tell me what to do' and driving. Not political though, I don't see driving or city policy as D/R, or at least it shouldn't be, that's dumb 😋

It wasn't until I read why the signs were there that I understood.

While walking/running, I just figured I always had to protect my self, and if people didn't pay attention, the sign wouldn't help me.

[–] becausechemistry@lemm.ee 11 points 7 months ago (4 children)

This sort of thing should not be a left-right / progressive/conservative thing at all. Data says it prevents harm. Easy.

But. When “city liberals” put policies into place, a contingent of those reactionary types feel it’s their duty to resist, no matter what. And their media engines convince their base of the same.

Big trucks turning right on red in downtown is like the least impactful result of this sort of thing, but it’s a pretty obvious one.

[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Where it becomes political is how the left and right approach government.

The left thinks: what can government do to help the community? Data says banning turning on red reduces harm and fatalities to pedestrians!

The right thinks: This new law is an inconvenient change for me. The government is in my way! (Although not in this case, they also tend to think: and I have to pay for it?)

[–] BakedGoods@sh.itjust.works 2 points 7 months ago

This sort of thing should not be a left-right / progressive/conservative thing at all. Data says it prevents harm. Easy.

Conservatism is all about causing harm so this is absolutely a political issue.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 2 points 7 months ago

So you're saying officials making something not political into something political?

I've definitely seen people do things against common sense because of their party.

Drinking bleach is dangerous...
DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO! 😆

[–] MachineFab812@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Honestly, "data-driven" is not enough, and no amount of signs will substitute for physical obstacles. Signs and "enforcement" are literally the pass-the-buck option for lawmakers, particularly in a city and state where the car-centric perspective took root early and deep.

It's extra-stupid, because Indy already has a lot of skywalks. They could expand that area with more skywalks and dedicated bike lanes(those streets are extra-wide as well, so bike-lanes with a curb or sidewalk between them and cars should be an option, as well as making the remaining car lanes squiggly)(hell, remove all but handi-capped parking while at it), or they can ban motor vehicles from tragetted areas entirely. The people who can't be bothered to walk, bike or ride mass-transit in aren't the target demographic, and allowing them to speed through won't change that.

Two other less-than-full, but still more effective than signs, measures are roundabouts or implimenting a full-intersection cross-walk cycle, where all the traffic lights switch to red to allow pedestrians and bikes to cross every which way. Make the pedestrian state last as long or longer than the total of all green-light states as well. Cars are the parties violating the space of others in these places, and should be forced to realize it.

[–] becausechemistry@lemm.ee 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I would love it if they closed off the circle and Meridian / Market in that center block and turn it all into pedestrian space.

Then do it for the next ring of streets the year after. And another the next year. Keep going until you hit North, East, South, and West streets.

You could still drive to the hospitals or the stadium or IUPUI. But the actual downtown would be paradise.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 1 points 7 months ago

I am going to pile on both of these comments with "heck yes"!

I love roundabouts, and I really like the skybridge network around the government and convention center. It would be cool to keep that going like crystal city in DC.

[–] GeminiFrenchFry@lemm.ee 1 points 7 months ago

I work downtown (CCB). I love these signs and that many drivers are following them. Crosswalks are safer, for sure. There are quite a few drivers who don't follow the new signs, and those people suck.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I honestly don't think this is a bad idea for a lot of congested areas, although I would be interested in seeing statistics if there are any.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 3 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I didn't see any in the article, but I assume the council would have had them.

It's weird how I have such little trust in officials now.

DPW would have the people with experience and data to make these decisions. The council should weight these and make decisions for community good. I shouldn't need to be convinced with data to agree, but that's what I want now in some cases.

I'm so burnt out with officials asserting things without stats to back it.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

Ideally I would like to see such statistics from other places that implemented the same plan.

[–] benfulton@hoosier.social 0 points 7 months ago (2 children)

@redfox @FlyingSquid @Bikevisionary might have some numbers to share.

[–] Bikevisionary@hoosier.social 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

@benfulton @redfox @FlyingSquid

sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590198223000696?via%3Dihub) helps to explain why right-on-red is so problematic. The authors examined people’s behavior behind the wheel, concluding that “at red-light turns, driver attention was heavily skewed toward leftward traffic.” The dangers of that orientation are obvious, especially since a “Walk” sign could be inviting pedestrians and cyclists to cross in front of the turning car.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 1 points 7 months ago

This was also very enlightening.

Now that I saw this, I realize I do it too.

I wonder if that should be a teaching point in driver's Ed. I don't think things like this were pointed out back in the day. Of course the study isn't very old.

[–] Bikevisionary@hoosier.social 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

@benfulton @redfox @FlyingSquid
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/17/right-turn-on-red-light-ban
"Turning right on red was only legal in a few states until the 1970s, when the federal government, facing an oil crisis, told states to allow it – or lose their energy funding. The idea was that cars would use less fuel if they avoided sitting at red lights. That law remains in place, despite 1984 research showing that at intersections allowing right-on-red, crashes jump 23%, pedestrian crashes increase by 60%, and cyclist crashes double.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 1 points 7 months ago

I had no idea the data was this bad. I hate sitting at lights, and I loathe sitting at a light with no traffic. It has basically become a stop sign for me now.

Seeing this, I at least understand why there's the push to reverse it.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

Anyone have experience in this area think this is working or not?

I wondered why there we so many no turn on red all the sudden when the intersection was not visually blocked, but I hadn't experienced the pedestrian safety issues.

Personally, I have to make eye contact with the red turn drivers before I feel safe to cross.

Anyone live downtown?
Do you like it?
How does it compare to similar population/size cities you've lived?

[–] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I live downtown. It's somewhat better since the change.

The fact is, the number one way to reduce pedestrian and bicyclist deaths is to slow down the cars. Study after study has proven this out. And preventing red light right turns is one way to do that. In a city center, that's crucial; unfortunately, people who live outside the city are inconvenienced by this, so they complain to their politicians who make state laws and waste state resources dictating how Indianapolis can run its own business. And Freeman is the worst about it; for him, it's all about sticking it to the "liberals."

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 1 points 7 months ago (2 children)

As a commuter, I hate the parking limitations and costs.

If I was a resident, I would hate people meddling in city business. Pretty easy to happen since state legislation is there.

[–] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

As a commuter, I hate the parking limitations and costs.

I mean, I get it. But parking destroys downtowns by replacing destinations with car storage, which pushes the destinations further apart, which reduces the number of people who can walk to the destination, which requires more car storage. It's a vicious cycle that can absolutely destroy downtowns, and has in a lot of places. So it's bad for commuters, too. Just less visible.

If I was a resident, I would hate people meddling in city business. Pretty easy to happen since state legislation is there.

Yeah, it's awful. And it keeps happening: Indianapolis votes for a thing. Freeman gets a bee in his bonnet about it—even though he doesn't live here—and thinks he can makes some noise with it. Freeman gets the other Republicans to sign on to it, and invalidates the will of the people who actually live here. Then he takes a victory lap while the residents have to live with his meddling.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

One of the reasons I really like DC. You legit don't need a car there.

[–] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

We're a pretty large family with only one car, which is about as close as we can be to that in Indianapolis. Bikes are awesome, and we're close to a trail, so we can get mostly anywhere in the city we want to go in a reasonable amount of time.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Wow, you guys are rare I think. For here.

I'm on call 24/7, so I have to be able to drive to work in x amount of minutes. I have to live within a radius too. My wife worked up in Lebanon before she was downtown. Couldn't have even done one car.

I really like walkable and bikable movement of late. Were only decades behind other parts of the world 😋

[–] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Yeah, I think we're probably fairly uncommon. Especially being single car by choice. Maybe someday it'll be doable enough that we won't be as unusual.

[–] benfulton@hoosier.social 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

@redfox @ilinamorato Any chance you could take the red line instead of driving? It might be cheaper and less frustrating.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 1 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Actually, my wife and I still planning to use it for hotel tango trips so no driving and Uber is $50 round trip.

I live in suburbs, and work outside of downtown, so I can't really use it for visiting her at lunch.

I want to support it though because that's how we get the funds and politicals to not constantly try to shut it down. I thought it was cool idea. I heard tons of hate for taking lanes.

You like it?

[–] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I love it, both as a rider and as a driver. Traffic isn't as fast on College, but it's way smoother. I didn't feel like I'm about to sideswipe every car parked on the street anymore. And riding the Red Line is like a dream; closest to light rail we're going to get with the current GOP stranglehold on state politics.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 2 points 7 months ago

Thanks for the tip.

[–] benfulton@hoosier.social 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

@redfox I've only used it a couple of times (I live and work in Bloomington and #ebike everywhere). I'd like to get in the habit of a park-and-ride from the south side when I visit Indy though.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 1 points 7 months ago

Thanks Ben. I think I still have to park in Broad ripple. Need the ride north to be long enough for me to get right to drive safe when I get there.

[–] GeminiFrenchFry@lemm.ee 1 points 7 months ago

It's working better, but not perfect. Most drivers I encounter downtown follow the signs. Crosswalks are safer because those turning right are at a stop waiting for their green instead of pulling up a bit into the crosswalk to look left for oncoming traffic. Some of the right turns downtown aren't always easy rights due to parked cars or other items semi-blocking the line of sight. I have one office at the CCB and one on the circle, and I feel like these signs have definitely improved some of the traffic concerns around that area.

[–] CptEnder@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It's interesting comparing, we have this in NYC as a citywide law so there's no signs. My friend freaked when I took a right at a red like "you're lucky you got away with that" when I first moved here. Apparently it's very much enforced here and a moving violation like running a red. I had completely no idea about the law until then and never did it again. I think how much enforcement dictates if it's followed or not.

[–] redfox@infosec.pub 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Edit: I've had driver's training from contractors like you'd see in movies....I still wouldn't want to drive in NYC 😋