Likethewayouthink at 2023-07-07 14:03:38+00:00 ID: jr0zf3d
The justice system is not about revenge, which is what you are talking about. It serves two purposes, to minimize the amount of crime in society and to reform criminals into law abiding citizens. How well it works is another question.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 14:25:46+00:00 ID: jr0zyp7
I am not talking about revenge bust Justice. I don’t advocate for death penalty.
DigglidMasta at 2023-07-07 14:27:34+00:00 ID: jr10857
What is it that you advocate for exactly?
Likethewayouthink at 2023-07-07 14:40:08+00:00 ID: jr11zqo
How is like 12 years in pretty comfy "prison" proportionate in any way to what happened to victims? How is it fair victims lost everything while a perpetrator only few years of freedom?
This sounds like you want punishment and revenge, which is a very understandable human feeling. The justice system has to be above that.
weirdowerdo at 2023-07-07 14:46:29+00:00 ID: jr12wqw
Your idea of justice isnt absolute. There have been many philosophers through history who had completely different ideas of what justice is. You are very much just talking about revenge. You see that as justice and care very little for the consequences of that.
Sebsyx at 2023-07-07 14:49:17+00:00 ID: jr13bfk
It’s about revenge as well.
twitticles at 2023-07-07 13:55:06+00:00 ID: jr0vn41
Norwegian prisons
You pitched your soap box in the wrong sub.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 13:58:39+00:00 ID: jr0w52h
That’s cause I initially posted it in Norway but I am very fresh redditor and they don’t accept fresh accounts. And I forgot to change Norwegian to Swedish or Scandinavian. Sorry.
myrmonden at 2023-07-07 16:08:01+00:00 ID: jr1f6vp
AH
lol admitting that you planned to lie but u failed.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 16:11:04+00:00 ID: jr1fnnj
I didn’t lie. I am telling the truth.
myrmonden at 2023-07-07 17:37:30+00:00 ID: jr1t19d
lol u literally wrote that it u forgot to change Norway to Sweden lol, proving that u know the story u made up is not about Sweden.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 17:38:05+00:00 ID: jr1t4ia
Which story?
myrmonden at 2023-07-07 17:44:09+00:00 ID: jr1u2nl
the one u made up about Sweden as u urself already admit it was about Norway at best.
weirdowerdo at 2023-07-07 14:00:34+00:00 ID: jr0weqa
The punishment is taking away their freedom. The punishment isn't and shouldn't be torture and inhumane prisons like Afghanistan or whatever totally not concentration camps China has. Punishing for the sake of punishing will only create more crime down the road and only idiots would pick this, there's a reason why only 20-30% of criminals in Sweden and Norway ever commit a crime again while in the US of A it's over 80%. The Little Scandinavia project in Pennsylvania has been successful so far. The goal is to get these people to become normal and not a burden on society anymore.
So go soap box elsewhere.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 14:04:13+00:00 ID: jr0wxej
Nowhere did I speak of torture . I am still confused how is simply having freedom taken away for few years only proportionate to what happened to victims.
weirdowerdo at 2023-07-07 14:19:13+00:00 ID: jr0z1b0
I don't think you even grasp the nature of having your freedom removed. You do not get to decide anything about your life. You're in prison. You do not have access to everything nor at all times. You're life is restricted and you have no freedom to visit family or friends. You have no freedom to roam freely, you have your cell and the places within the prison that you can be in. That's it.
You are forced against your will to be in a place for years to come or decades if the crime you've done was that severe. You simply do not understand what having no freedom means and how it affects an inmate if you do not think its proportionate. We don't need them to become more murderous if we start with punishing them for the sake of punishing.
We need these people to have their years or decades in a facility where we get them to not commit crimes again. When you've been locked up for say 20 years because you murdered someone at age 25 and you get out when you're like 45. That's 20 years of your life you're never getting back, 20 years where you did not have the freedom to do what you wanted with your life.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 14:30:15+00:00 ID: jr10lie
I suppose that’s a valid point. But from what I read, it seems Scandinavian prisons in general actually provide education to inmates and that inmates have freedom to go leave their cell during the day and go outside. That’s what I think is going too far. Ideally, I think prisoner should be locked in his cell whole day (maybe like an hour only if walk outside) and he shouldn’t be given any education or job skills.
twitticles at 2023-07-07 14:47:12+00:00 ID: jr130id
and he shouldn’t be given any education or job skills
So when the sentence is completed the prisoner should be set free having aquired no skills, thus being in a far worse off position and far more likely to resort to crime again instead of being able to find a legal vocation? The main point of our penal system is to reduce crime, and your suggestion would accomplish the exact opposite.
ojsan_ at 2023-07-07 14:45:08+00:00 ID: jr12poj
When an inmate is released, they should be a better person than they were when they came into prison.
You speak of the victims, “what about the victims?”. Were I mugged, I wouldn’t call my perpetrator being given an education a miscarriage of justice. I would find some solace in them not being out on the street. I would not feel better knowing he’s eating Nutraloaf for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I find no peace in other’s suffering.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 15:19:12+00:00 ID: jr17rlq
There is a difference between a mugger, a pickpocket, or a thief vs a rapist and murder. A man who raped and kills a young woman or a man who kidnaps a child for ransom and plans on killing him/her is different though. He doesn’t deserve anything but to rot in a small cell Forever without tv. And if he dares to complain, court should tell him “think of a poor woman you murdered!” And improve his conditions once he feels guilt and remorse. Genuine one.
ojsan_ at 2023-07-07 16:02:24+00:00 ID: jr1ecu1
Thankfully, we don’t have people who commit such crimes in our country.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 16:05:21+00:00 ID: jr1eshm
Lucky you.
weirdowerdo at 2023-07-07 14:42:30+00:00 ID: jr12c1e
Very low risk inmates, think those who've driven 250km/h, done some narcotic, tax evasion can actually leave prison during days. When you murder someone you aren't getting that freedom at all. When you rape someone you dont get that freedom. When you kidnap people and kill them you dont get that freedom
Education is extremely important to get people back into society and be able to get a job so removing that is just fucking dumb. Just having them in cells 23/7 is dumb they'll just go mad and will never get better.
You're quite literally making sure they commit crimes again after they're released. Punishment for the sake of punishment does not work and your opinion on the matter is useless and not based in science any way.
Also you're not from here so why do you care and why do you think we give a shit about what people abroad think when our system literally works better than y'alls system?
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 15:52:24+00:00 ID: jr1ctji
I am Polish and I am really hoping your lenient system won’t make it there. But valid points. Not sure if true though. From what I read it seems Scandinavian jails are very lenient and you even keep a right to vote.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 14:05:18+00:00 ID: jr0x2y1
Also please be respectful in your answers. “This soap box somewhere else” isn’t very nice; I was only asking question.
DigglidMasta at 2023-07-07 14:13:40+00:00 ID: jr0y9do
You're asking about norwegian prisons in a swedish sub and then ask people to be respectful when they just tell you what they think.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 14:16:27+00:00 ID: jr0yndr
I mean… I don’t like being told “go leave us alone”. I meant Swedish. I will edit my post if I can.
DigglidMasta at 2023-07-07 14:29:32+00:00 ID: jr10i13
People here are answering your questions, but you refuse to hear them. The person told you to go soap box somewhere else. You've been quite ignorant in your questioning and keep saying that you wanted to post in a norwegian group but couldnt, so you come to us instead. Like thats the same thing? You're the one being disrespectful.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 16:10:36+00:00 ID: jr1fkzu
Ok I am sorry. I am willing to hear answers out. I just appreciate less harshness. But sorry if I disrespected you.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 14:17:17+00:00 ID: jr0yrjd
This is… I initially posted it in Norwegian community but they don’t accept fresh accounts.
Sebsyx at 2023-07-07 14:21:56+00:00 ID: jr137r0
During law school I worked at Kumla during a summer and the cells are definitely not something you would call “comfy” or hotel like.
Ridish at 2023-07-07 14:44:38+00:00 ID: jr12mzo
The "justice" system is not designed to bring justice (which is subjective anyway). It's designed to optimize resource efficiency. If you spend a bunch of cash to feed/educate someone, then jail them for life you are wasting money. If you try to rehabilitate instead it is more efficient.
But yeah, you have to find a point were the common man doesn't riot over perceived injustices.
When you ask the question, "why does the justice system look this way" the answer is always; "because people in power benefit from it".
createdfordogpics at 2023-07-07 14:44:38+00:00 ID: jr1wbm0
Define justice.
People are not inherently evil. People commit crimes because society fails them. It doesn't matter if people are not actually mentally ill but people who are entirely right in the head don't commit crime. Do you think putting these people in bad conditions for a long period of time will help the situation? The point is to put them away from society until they can be helped enough not to commit crimes again. It's even called "kriminalvården" (criminal care) in Sweden.
It's not about justice it's about pragmaticism and doing what's best for society.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 19:15:27+00:00 ID: jr27vld
I agree. Many people are not inherently evil. They need help. But at the same time, exceptions should be made for psychopaths who lack empathy. They should be in harshest prisons. But I agree. Most need to be helped.
theablanca at 2023-07-07 17:58:44+00:00 ID: jr234pq
The american "criminal system" is built to generate PROFIT. People are put in prison over bs. There is nothing about it to make them "pay for their crimes". It's not about "justice". It's about the companies that owns and operates the prisons. That they RENT out the prisoners as labor.
Is that better? No. It's not. It's MUCH worse.
KrysPole (OP) at 2023-07-07 19:14:06+00:00 ID: jr27oce
I am not an American. Nowhere did I say it’s a good system . It’s also terrible. We need a system that differentiates between psychopaths and people who just went in a dark path. For former, we need unpleasant jails. 3 meter cells without tv and no opportunity for anything. For mom people thoug, we absolutely need to help them get back to society.
theablanca at 2023-07-07 20:46:03+00:00 ID: jr2laf9
With that you create monsters, is that what you want? People do stupid things.
The Nordic way isn't only what youve seen online, don't think that all cells are that way.
Your way will create more vicious psychos. There have to be something other than "just" pure punishment.
Justice went away the second the crime was commited. You think that destroying more lives will actually be a good thing? No.
And, do also think about laws. Such prisons you want can be found in Russia, North Korea. And so on.
Still a good idea? No. It's not.
I get why, but no. It's a very naive and black/white way of looking at it. And highly dangerous.
Olsson1234 at 2023-07-07 21:17:25+00:00 ID: jr2pvr1
Hi /u/KrysPole, your post has been
Removed:
Soap-boxing. Posts and comments whose primary purpose is to drive political agenda through editorialized content, repeated spam of the same subject or concern trolling are removed for soap-boxing.
See our full rules over at Community guidelines and use this section as a reference when contacting the mods on this subject.
AccidentalGirlToy at 2023-07-07 18:43:46+00:00 ID: jr2vl5d
You are quite right. To get justice in this country I often find myself being forced to carry it out myself. While a talking-to or even a munerary fine seldom results in a desired behavioral change, I have found that after being hunted down and rammed off the road, having their knees crushed with a tire iron and their blinker armature forced up their rectum and their jaw dislocated with a screw jack, then for the real punishment being forced to watch their family members dismembered in horrific sadistic ways (think "deglovement") in atonement, they will surely have learned to never again make me wait in wain because they can't be arsed to use their damn turning signal.