The waters have been muddied. I have huge disagreements with conservatives... But it has never amounted to much. However, the past decade has seen a switch from "conservatism" to "alt-right maga scum". My friends who were not swept up in the Trump cult of personality and far right tribalism are fucked.
this post was submitted on 02 Jul 2023
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Politics
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I just don’t want Lemmy to become a echo chamber for any side and it seems to be that way when it comes to politics already.
a political space leaning towards a certain side is, naturally, going to be an echo chamber. i mean, couldn't i just call every right-leaning space a conservative echo chamber too? imo, we need to stop perpetuating the myth that "neutral" spaces are normal, & "echo chambers" are some new bad thing that the leftists keep doing to shield themselves from information. when people call a group an "echo chamber", what they really mean is "a group that shows bias", & because it's natural for humans to show bias, most social hierarchies we form tend to naturally bias towards certain opinions too.
every group of humans, whether on the internet or in real life, is an echo chamber that reflects the beliefs & opinions of the most active users. there's always a majority opinion, & from what i've experienced groups that try to avoid their biases just tend to turn into places that feel completely unnatural to talk in, where everyone dances around eggshells what they truly believe but end up letting it bleed through anyway. & from the introductory posts that describe the spirit of this site, that situation the exact opposite of what this instance was made for.
so while it's not strictly against the rules to be conservative, & i don't think it's fair to say that conservative opinions are completely unwelcome on beehaw* (there are definitely conservative & center-right leaning instances out there so i don't think it's fair to ask about all of lemmy in the title), if you're looking for other people here to agree with you, well bad news - a leftist bias here will be unavoidable. if you choose to participate here, you just have to accept the fact that this instance is made up primarily of leftist users, & thus threads here always be naturally biased primarily towards leftists opinions.
Posts like this are why this server needs to bring back downvotes
Depends on what we call "right wing".
I keep asking, and have probably asked more than fifty times over the last 4 years, what right-wing Americans stand for other than the "culture war". Why would someone call themselves a conservative/Republican if they are opposed to the Republicans' stances on minorities, stances on LGBT+, stances on gestures broadly at Florida, etc. What's left of the ideology when you take those things out, especially considering that the right has pretty demonstrably dropped their support for "fiscal responsibility", "small government", "anti-judicial activism", and "opposing the influence of Russia".
Most of the time, that question just gets ghosted. Like, over 90% of the times I've asked it, it's just been a conversation-ender. The rest of the time, the answers boil down to "my bigotry is more fine-grained than that". They're good friends with Mexicans and Asians and African-Americans, but hate Muslims. Or they're fine with gay people, but feel transgender people shouldn't exist. Or they love gay people and minorities, as long as they're all Christian whether they want to be or not. These folks call themselves Republicans not because they hate everyone the Republican party hates, but because they hate one (or a few) groups that the Republicans hate.
Your comment is a pretty good attack on what the GOP has become. My criticism is that the GOP doesn't represent all of right-wing political ideology. I think most people, or at least people like me, aren't dogmatically locked into any party or ideological label. I have some views which conservatives would agree with and plenty that they wouldn't. Overall, I think that most conservative-oriented communities are narrow-minded at best, and openly racist and authoritarian at worst. But the left-leaning communities aren't great either. They (justifiably) want to insulate themselves from the hateful parts of the right. Unfortunately, this often devolves into an echo-chamber without real discussion. I'm hoping Lemmy as a whole doesn't devolve down either path.
That's fine, but then there is a burden to both understand why your adjacency to this evil force makes people uncomfortable, and to rhetorically separate yourself from it as needed. This is just the unfortunate reality of how deranged mainstream conservatism has become.
I consider myself pretty libertarian in the grand scheme of things, but I am fine with an echo chamber where basic human rights are respected. I believe that my vision of society has no place for bigots or theocrats and that such people should be treated legally the same as fraudsters or thieves. And I think it's absolutely insane that this would be considered controversial in a good faith conservative circle. The real conservatives I know would understand that an inclusive, well represented society is a productive and ideologically secure society.
Unfortunately, this often devolves into an echo-chamber without real discussion.
I haven't seen a discussion about the merits of different tax policies (and no, "cut all the taxes!" isn't a policy), or the role of local/state/federal government, or social service policy (and no, "stop all poor people spending!" is not a policy), or the appropriate division of power between executive/legislative/judicial, or anything like that, in decades. W was president the last time I saw any form of media having a real discussion about those things.
Before 2015 or so, there were a handful of people in my circle who identified as conservative that could have a real, nuanced, complex conversation about public policy with; people who I thought were incorrect, but who could articulate their points well enough that I could kind of see where they were coming from, and we could come out of a discussion with a better understanding of each other, and maybe one or the other of us might even have softened on a given position in the process. It was possible to find basic, fundamental points on which we agreed, and use those as a foundation for a broader discussion.
Since 2016, all of those people, to a man, have become Q-anon deep-state groomers-coming-for-our-kids frazzledrip climate-hoax hunter's-laptop gays-have-it-too-good morons. Not a single one of them still believes in any of the fundamental points of agreement we used to have, from which a productive discussion could be based. They have entirely left reality behind in favor of Jewish space lasers and (the latest talking point) "every father thinks about his daughter that way!".
I have not met someone who identifies as a conservative or a Republican who isn't on that same train for a very long time.
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As far as I know Beehaw is not explicitly political. On the other hand I personally think common practices of some parties which can include spreading miss-information, fabrication, denialism, intimidation, trolling, and generally planning to disruptive are out of bounds. Just saying that can be considered as being unwelcoming to some people that call themselves conservatives.
They're not going to have the numbers to get any traction. Honestly, the bulk of the vocal conservatives are older and a bit brain rotted at this point. They won't want to learn or deal with something like Lemmy because it's not as easily out of the box on their cell phone yet, because there's not great app support. That demographic is almost exclusively mobile device users. Note; the above description is of your typical boomer esq white dude who you imagine taking a tik tok in his truck from a too low angle with wrap around shades on.
The actual alt-right and neonazis don't need lemmy, because they weren't really on reddit to begin with. The majority of them that are just on the surface of the alt-right are on 4chan, voat, and shit like that. Those that are a lot deeper are very tightly knit and on IRCs, telegram, onion networks; and are typically invite only or you need to know a guy who knows a guy kinda thing.
Conservatives have no need for Lemmy, they have their primary platforms still and can easily migrate. Reddit was basically all the leftist sphere had.
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There are greens, yellow, and reds. Greens agree with you, yellow may not agree but you can have a constructive conversation, and red are people who never will and will only double down and care little for evidence or logic. Angloworld conservatives are reds. They are fascist.
Ultimately that's like asking if they are allowed on the Web. Lemmy isn't a singular thing or a singular community. It's lots of individual communities that can choose which other communities they interact with. There will inevitably be communities or groups of communities that are more insular and ones that are more open. I guess the real question is whether the eventual major communities that interact freely with each other include right wing groups or not. That'll be something that works itself out based on to what degree everyone else is willing to interact with them. Which seems to me to be an approach to these things that most people on the right often endorse. If in this case it happens to leave them on the outside of the mainstream dialogue looking in then they should probably do some self-reflection about why their participation is undesirable.
As a self described leftist, I'm open to discussing almost anything in a respectful manner. I'm not going to shit on anyone just for have a different opinion, but I'm going to argue my viewpoint when I feel led to. And I'm certainly going to call someone out for being bigoted, disrespectful, or spreading misinformation. A lot of those things are not well received by those on the right and may make them feel unwelcome, but that's really not my problem.
Just had one of those conversations the other day, where "We don't want racists around here" met with "why don't you like conservatives". It's funny when they tell on themselves like that.
That depends on your definition of conservative and right wing. Casual observation the last few weeks Ive been here, but this instance leans left. You wont get banned for trying to preach fiscal conservatism or having a religion here. Certain stuff may not make you popular either depending on what conservative ideology you're preaching.
Ive noticed the mods and admins here dont play the usual troll game. So any dog whistles, trolling, and bad faith stuff gets shutdown.
Hopefully.
Liberalism is also a right wing ideology.
I think a lot of the other posts covered my thoughts on the issue but I wanted to add something less about politics and more about lemmy itself:
unwelcome on Lemmy
There is no one Lemmy, it's a bunch of federated instances. You made this post on the beehaw instance. Some instances will have their own personality and rules, but if you don't like them, the beauty of the lemmy and the fediverse is that you can just create another instance. I haven't done a ton of searching yet, but I imagine that conservatives and right-wing personalities will carve out their own corner eventually.
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